If I am forced to admit one thing

[TeePee4Prez]

It's this...  Before some of you anti-abortionists salivate, I will admit up front I feel like a real jackass for some of my obviously off the wall pro-choice comments.  Now this does not mean I am no longer pro-choice.  Some of you may be asking why I'm doing this.  It's simple- guilt.  I was having a conversation with one of my best friends who is a conservative anti-abortion Republican currently in law school.  We were discussing Supreme Court nominees and how he thinks Alito should be nominated and would like nothing more than to see Roe vs. Wade overturned.  Of course I disagreed, but not as strongly because I had a few in me and was tired.  One thing he never told me in the 13 years I've known him right after we discussed Alito is his mother had a tumor in her stomach and the doctor told her it may be best to abort.  This was 4 hours ago and I still feel stunned.  Again, my opinion hasn't changed, but man do I feel stupid for some previous comments I posted on here.  I really don't know what to think.     

[dazzleman]

We've all said things, and held opinions, about which we have been embarrassed later.

It's good that you're rethinking some of your opinions.  Everybody needs to do that sometimes.  You may not necessarily change them, but you could see things from a different angle.

While I understand that abortion can sometimes seem to be the best of several bad options, I have never been able to understand the mentality of those who virtually celebrate it.  I can't say that I am comfortable with it, or think it is morally correct in a vacuum, but I can see the point of some who argue in favor of limited legalized abortion.  I cannot see the point of those who argue that it is virtually a sacrament, and that a "right" to it should be enshrined in the constitution right through the ninth month of pregnancy.

The Roe vs. Wade ruling, by constitutionalizing this issue, turned it over to the extremists, and I don't think most Americans are comfortable with either extreme on this issue.  From that perspective, I think Roe vs. Wade was a very bad ruling, regardless of anybody's views on the abortion issue itself.

In any case Flyers, it takes a big man to publicly admit that he's gone too far on something.  You should be commended for it.

BTW, how is your arm doing?

[Keystone Phil]

Yeah, thinking before you speak is usually a good thing. It's good that a friend's situation helped you realize how sick your comments were but it shouldn't take that. Regardless, I am glad that you realized that your comments were outrageous and admitted it here.

[TeePee4Prez]

Yeah, thinking before you speak is usually a good thing. It's good that a friend's situation helped you realize how sick your comments were but it shouldn't take that. Regardless, I am glad that you realized that your comments were outrageous and admitted it here.

Hey, we all fall off the deep, including yourself.  I know a friend's situation shouldn't have made me realize I was a jackass, but it somehow woke me up.  One thing I have to admit with being a pro-choice Democrat in a Catholic family is I end up having to fiercely defend a woman's right to choose and I can't be sheepish about it because I know the anti-abortionists won't let up at all.  Yes and I'll also admit it's the psychological concept of projection that leads me to these fierce arguments on here as well.

[Keystone Phil]

Hey, we all fall off the deep, including yourself. 

How have I fallen off the deep end? Name one time I said something as extreme as advocating abortion so you can have a woman.

[Everett]

I'm glad that you discovered that, Flyers. Regardless of whether or not you are still pro-choice, I think it's a good thing that you realised just how outrageous your comments were. I don't have as much of a problem with people who are pro-choice provided that they're (for lack of a better word) classy about it. It's the same for a lot of other beliefs in general. For example, I don't like pro-life people who advocate blowing up abortion clinics. That isn't classy, and I hope they eventually run into someone who had to abort for a good reason and at least rethink the severity of their opinions. Either way, since you've come out and admitted it, don't feel too badly about it anymore. You've learnt your lesson, and as long as you don't forget about the lesson you've learnt, we can all move on.

[dazzleman]

Yeah, thinking before you speak is usually a good thing. It's good that a friend's situation helped you realize how sick your comments were but it shouldn't take that. Regardless, I am glad that you realized that your comments were outrageous and admitted it here.

Hey, we all fall off the deep, including yourself.  I know a friend's situation shouldn't have made me realize I was a jackass, but it somehow woke me up.  One thing I have to admit with being a pro-choice Democrat in a Catholic family is I end up having to fiercely defend a woman's right to choose and I can't be sheepish about it because I know the anti-abortionists won't let up at all.  Yes and I'll also admit it's the psychological concept of projection that leads me to these fierce arguments on here as well.

It can be tough growing up in an Irish family, whatever your political views.

Traditionally, Irish families were rabidly Democratic, and my mom was considered a real rebel for switching to the Republicans.  It was talked about in hushed tones back then.  Ridiculous when you think of it.  Now, most of the family has made the switch.

[dazzleman]

I'm glad that you discovered that, Flyers. Regardless of whether or not you are still pro-choice, I think it's a good thing that you realised just how outrageous your comments were. I don't have as much of a problem with people who are pro-choice provided that they're (for lack of a better word) classy about it. It's the same for a lot of other beliefs in general. For example, I don't like pro-life people who advocate blowing up abortion clinics. That isn't classy, and I hope they eventually run into someone who had to abort for a good reason and at least rethink the severity of their opinions. Either way, since you've come out and admitted it, don't feel too badly about it anymore. You've learnt your lesson, and as long as you don't forget about the lesson you've learnt, we can all move on.

I tend to agree.  Even though I cannot consider myself pro-abortion or pro-choice, I can tolerate those who are so long as they recognize that abortion is highly regrettable and always signifies a failure.  When they start to call it a medical procedure no different than getting a wart removed, that's when I start to have a real problem.

[TeePee4Prez]

Yeah, thinking before you speak is usually a good thing. It's good that a friend's situation helped you realize how sick your comments were but it shouldn't take that. Regardless, I am glad that you realized that your comments were outrageous and admitted it here.

Hey, we all fall off the deep, including yourself.  I know a friend's situation shouldn't have made me realize I was a jackass, but it somehow woke me up.  One thing I have to admit with being a pro-choice Democrat in a Catholic family is I end up having to fiercely defend a woman's right to choose and I can't be sheepish about it because I know the anti-abortionists won't let up at all.  Yes and I'll also admit it's the psychological concept of projection that leads me to these fierce arguments on here as well.

It can be tough growing up in an Irish family, whatever your political views.

Traditionally, Irish families were rabidly Democratic, and my mom was considered a real rebel for switching to the Republicans.  It was talked about in hushed tones back then.  Ridiculous when you think of it.  Now, most of the family has made the switch.

What's interesting is most Irish Catholic families, including mine, are very split down the middle politically.  You're right though, all my grandparents were Kennedy Dems.  My father was a rabid Democrat in the 1980s and early 1990s, but I think that was due to economic circumstances, but he was always very anti-abortion.  He switched in the mid 90s because of Clinton passing NAFTA and Bob Casey Sr. being denied a speaking slot during the 1992 DNC Convention.  He still detests Reaganomics and it seems like he's swallowing a rough pill to vote Republican.  I personally find it stupid, but hey what can I do.  I remember him getting into some heated arguments with more prosperous relatives in the 80s over Reagan's economic policies.

[CARLHAYDEN]

It's this...  Before some of you anti-abortionists salivate, I will admit up front I feel like a real jackass for some of my obviously off the wall pro-choice comments.  Now this does not mean I am no longer pro-choice.  Some of you may be asking why I'm doing this.  It's simple- guilt.  I was having a conversation with one of my best friends who is a conservative anti-abortion Republican currently in law school.  We were discussing Supreme Court nominees and how he thinks Alito should be nominated and would like nothing more than to see Roe vs. Wade overturned.  Of course I disagreed, but not as strongly because I had a few in me and was tired.  One thing he never told me in the 13 years I've known him right after we discussed Alito is his mother had a tumor in her stomach and the doctor told her it may be best to abort.  This was 4 hours ago and I still feel stunned.  Again, my opinion hasn't changed, but man do I feel stupid for some previous comments I posted on here.  I really don't know what to think.     

First, you should be congratulated  for both thinking out your positions and not simply regurgitating stale left wing rhetoric.

Second, you should also be congratulated for your admission of going over the top in rhetoric.  I wish others would follow your example in this area.

Third, welcome to the moderate majority, which favors limited abortion.

[dazzleman]

What's interesting is most Irish Catholic families, including mine, are very split down the middle politically.  You're right though, all my grandparents were Kennedy Dems.  My father was a rabid Democrat in the 1980s and early 1990s, but I think that was due to economic circumstances, but he was always very anti-abortion.  He switched in the mid 90s because of Clinton passing NAFTA and Bob Casey Sr. being denied a speaking slot during the 1992 DNC Convention.  He still detests Reaganomics and it seems like he's swallowing a rough pill to vote Republican.  I personally find it stupid, but hey what can I do.  I remember him getting into some heated arguments with more prosperous relatives in the 80s over Reagan's economic policies.

The funny thing about the Irish is that there are basically two types, and the type largely determines political views.  The first type remembers every little slight or bit of discrimination that ever took place against them or their ancestors.  This type is likely to remain Democratic.

The second type is eager to leave the past behind, and the minute this type gets a little money, they act as if they always had it, and are no longer interested in thinking about or remembering the time before they, or their immediate ancestors, became successful.  They also tend to scoff at any talk of past discrimination against the Irish, and have little to no interest in the current Irish-British situation.  This type becomes Republican.

Obviously, I decidedly belong to the second group.  When I say that, I am just stating a fact, not passing judgment on which one is better.

[TeePee4Prez]

What's interesting is most Irish Catholic families, including mine, are very split down the middle politically.  You're right though, all my grandparents were Kennedy Dems.  My father was a rabid Democrat in the 1980s and early 1990s, but I think that was due to economic circumstances, but he was always very anti-abortion.  He switched in the mid 90s because of Clinton passing NAFTA and Bob Casey Sr. being denied a speaking slot during the 1992 DNC Convention.  He still detests Reaganomics and it seems like he's swallowing a rough pill to vote Republican.  I personally find it stupid, but hey what can I do.  I remember him getting into some heated arguments with more prosperous relatives in the 80s over Reagan's economic policies.

The funny thing about the Irish is that there are basically two types, and the type largely determines political views.  The first type remembers every little slight or bit of discrimination that ever took place against them or their ancestors.  This type is likely to remain Democratic.

The second type is eager to leave the past behind, and the minute this type gets a little money, they act as if they always had it, and are no longer interested in thinking about or remembering the time before they, or their immediate ancestors, became successful.  They also tend to scoff at any talk of past discrimination against the Irish, and have little to no interest in the current Irish-British situation.  This type becomes Republican.

Obviously, I decidedly belong to the second group.  When I say that, I am just stating a fact, not passing judgment on which one is better.

Ehh, I know some Republicans who remember every bit of discrimination when it comes to their Irish roots as well.  I know many who have an interest in the current Irish-British situation.  Thing is I don't think the Irish-British situation determines the politics of your typical Irish Catholic.  It's more a matter of labor-wealth, prochoice-antichoice, and what scale they use to gauge candidates and their positions.

[patrick1]

The second type is eager to leave the past behind, and the minute this type gets a little money, they act as if they always had it, and are no longer interested in thinking about or remembering the time before they, or their immediate ancestors, became successful.  They also tend to scoff at any talk of past discrimination against the Irish, and have little to no interest in the current Irish-British situation.  This type becomes Republican.

Speak for yourself Dazzleman.  There are hundreds of Irish-American  Republicans who have not forgotten their Irish heritage and support a unified Ireland-  most notable is Peter King.   We are Republicans here at home and aboard in Ireland.  Further, I refuse to forgot our history and co-opt a wasp worldview.

[TeePee4Prez]

The second type is eager to leave the past behind, and the minute this type gets a little money, they act as if they always had it, and are no longer interested in thinking about or remembering the time before they, or their immediate ancestors, became successful.  They also tend to scoff at any talk of past discrimination against the Irish, and have little to no interest in the current Irish-British situation.  This type becomes Republican.

Speak for yourself Dazzleman.  There are hundreds of Irish-American  Republicans who have not forgotten their Irish heritage and support a unified Ireland-  most notable is Peter King.   We are Republicans here at home and aboard in Ireland.  Further, I refuse to forgot our history and co-opt a wasp worldview.

Ironically, I actually couldn't stand going to the AOH because of it's right wing influence.  Another notable is Mike Fitzpatrick whom is my neighboring Congressman that I abosultely loathe.  He photo-ops with the AOH constantly.

[Richard]

Dude you have balls.

[team america]
I love your balls!
[/team america]

[dazzleman]

The second type is eager to leave the past behind, and the minute this type gets a little money, they act as if they always had it, and are no longer interested in thinking about or remembering the time before they, or their immediate ancestors, became successful.  They also tend to scoff at any talk of past discrimination against the Irish, and have little to no interest in the current Irish-British situation.  This type becomes Republican.

Speak for yourself Dazzleman.  There are hundreds of Irish-American  Republicans who have not forgotten their Irish heritage and support a unified Ireland-  most notable is Peter King.   We are Republicans here at home and aboard in Ireland.  Further, I refuse to forgot our history and co-opt a wasp worldview.

I guess my comments draw a Bronx cheer from you patrick1.   Fair enough; you have a right to your opinion.  We've always been friendly here and I hope it stays that way, man.

My comments were my own personal observations, anecdotal of course.  I had some older relatives on my maternal grandfather's side of the family who had a very pan-Irish view of the world.  They were staunch Democrats and continued voting Democratic even after the party came to be the antithesis of 90% of what they believed in.  One of them said she hated Winston Churchill because of what he did to the Irish (not sure what that was) and gave him no credit for his role in saving western civilization from Hitler.  I guess I just don't think the Irish are so important that I would sacrifice all the peoples of Europe, as a starter, to get revenge on the British.

My maternal grandmother's father was, we believe, assassinated by British agents in 1920 due to his supposed IRA activity.  It took place in a bar (or speakeasy maybe, since it was during Prohibition) that he owned in New York City.  I can't remember the exact neighborhood.  The interesting thing is that my grandmother never spoke of how he died, lied if anybody asked, and never showed the slightest interest in the whole Irish situation for her entire life.  She also switched from the Democratic to the Republican party in the 1970s.  Most of my younger relatives have taken after my grandmother in terms of their overall attitude and approach to Irish issues, and I think that's where I'm getting my observations from.

"Irish" issues were never discussed in my home when I was growing up.  Everything I know about the history of the Irish I learned from a book or in school.  Also, I am half-WASP in any case, on my father's side.  So it's probably pretty predictable that I don't share your level of interest in Irish issues.

I respect your opinions, and had no intention of offending you in any case.  I hope you recognize that, man.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

It's this...  Before some of you anti-abortionists salivate, I will admit up front I feel like a real jackass for some of my obviously off the wall pro-choice comments.  Now this does not mean I am no longer pro-choice.  Some of you may be asking why I'm doing this.  It's simple- guilt.  I was having a conversation with one of my best friends who is a conservative anti-abortion Republican currently in law school.  We were discussing Supreme Court nominees and how he thinks Alito should be nominated and would like nothing more than to see Roe vs. Wade overturned.  Of course I disagreed, but not as strongly because I had a few in me and was tired.  One thing he never told me in the 13 years I've known him right after we discussed Alito is his mother had a tumor in her stomach and the doctor told her it may be best to abort.  This was 4 hours ago and I still feel stunned.  Again, my opinion hasn't changed, but man do I feel stupid for some previous comments I posted on here.  I really don't know what to think.     

Thanks to chaos theory, we are all very lucky to have been born. One tiny change a few hundred years ago, and none of us would be here.

[angus]

...or we might be very very different.  Actually, Ren'n'Stimpy examined this very important issue.  Are you old enough to remember that show?  Ren and Stimpy go back in time and Ren accidentally drops a quarter in the primordial muck some 3.5 billion years ago.  Fast forward to the future:  everyone--dogs, cats, people, tables, chairs, everyone--look like quarters.  Walking, talking, U.S. 25-cent peices they were.  It's all a big crap-shoot, my friend.  Actually, I favor the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics over the Copenhagen Interpretation.  In some alternate universe, spatially and temporally coherent with our own, but with different dimensions and different realities, you are a mountain goat in Bulgaria.  And I am a blade of grass, capable of producing a neurotoxin which only affects goats when they try to eat me.  Back off, goat!

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

...or we might be very very different.  Actually, Ren'n'Stimpy examined this very important issue.  Are you old enough to remember that show?  Ren and Stimpy go back in time and Ren accidentally drops a quarter in the primordial muck some 3.5 billion years ago.  Fast forward to the future:  everyone--dogs, cats, people, tables, chairs, everyone--look like quarters.  Walking, talking, U.S. 25-cent peices they were.  It's all a big crap-shoot, my friend.  Actually, I favor the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics over the Copenhagen Interpretation.  In some alternate universe, spatially and temporally coherent with our own, but with different dimensions and different realities, you are a mountain goat in Bulgaria.  And I am a blade of grass, capable of producing a neurotoxin which only affects goats when they try to eat me.  Back off, goat!

Too bad that it's probably impossible to test which interpretation is right. They both yield the same results in our observable universe. We don't know anything about what is outside our universe, if anything.

[angus]

Astute observation, grasshopper.  Impartiality in observation is impossible.  Remember Schrödinger's cat?  Well, the nice thing about Many Worlds is that there is some version of reality in which the coefficients in the linear combination of all states are zero except for those associated with the states described by the Copenhagen interpretation.  So even if you could test it and the result was that Copenhagen is a valid interpretation, the results would be inconclusive, so it really doesn't matter.  Still, if in some future life given you by gods with warped senses of humor (and justice) you find yourself a hungry mountain goat, remember my words:  Think twice before tasting that exotic-looking blade of grass.

[TeePee4Prez]

It's this...  Before some of you anti-abortionists salivate, I will admit up front I feel like a real jackass for some of my obviously off the wall pro-choice comments.  Now this does not mean I am no longer pro-choice.  Some of you may be asking why I'm doing this.  It's simple- guilt.  I was having a conversation with one of my best friends who is a conservative anti-abortion Republican currently in law school.  We were discussing Supreme Court nominees and how he thinks Alito should be nominated and would like nothing more than to see Roe vs. Wade overturned.  Of course I disagreed, but not as strongly because I had a few in me and was tired.  One thing he never told me in the 13 years I've known him right after we discussed Alito is his mother had a tumor in her stomach and the doctor told her it may be best to abort.  This was 4 hours ago and I still feel stunned.  Again, my opinion hasn't changed, but man do I feel stupid for some previous comments I posted on here.  I really don't know what to think.     

Thanks to chaos theory, we are all very lucky to have been born. One tiny change a few hundred years ago, and none of us would be here.

Look I'm still pro-choice.  It's just I feel guilty about some of the edgy things I've said on the subject.