Why Nazism Was Socialism and Why Socialism Is Totalitarian

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And clearly the Irish Republican Army and the Iraqi Republican National Guard are Republicans just like Bush.

[Bono]

And clearly the Irish Republican Army and the Iraqi Republican National Guard are Republicans just like Bush.

A party name is not an ideology, adn if you had even read the post, you'd know this has nothing to do with the name, but with the policies.

[WiseGuy]

Everyone with a different viewpoint to me is a Nazi LOL!!1111

While we're on the subject, Al, do the British people really pronounce Nazi Nah-zee' as opposed to Not'-see?

[Jens]

The ecomonic policies of the Nazis (and the fascists in Italy ect) was based on the idea of corporative (not co-orperative) society, where individual ownership wasn't allowed and the nationstate is the ultimative goal. The Nazis where anti-capitalists, anti-socialists and anti-democratic. They believed in a society where as said the nation was the centre of everything, and every member of the nation comtributed to the wellbeing of the nation is strong opposition to the internationalism of the communists and individualism of the capitalists.

If you pick out a few thing (like the writer of the article Bono posted, did) Nazis look like communists. Take some other things and the Nazis looks like capitalists. Look at the whole picture and se the madmen they truely were.

[Bono]

Everyone with a different viewpoint to me is a Nazi LOL!!1111

While we're on the subject, Al, do the British people really pronounce Nazi Nah-zee' as opposed to Not'-see?

Is there any other way?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Everyone with a different viewpoint to me is a Nazi LOL!!1111

While we're on the subject, Al, do the British people really pronounce Nazi Nah-zee' as opposed to Not'-see?

It was often pronounced (more or less) as "Nazzy" until the mid '40's for some reasons. Since then with a sort of r sound.
Why?

[WiseGuy]

I just watched "Bedknobs and Broomsticks" and I was curious because that's the way they pronouced in the flim.  Wondered if the guy who said it was actually british, or was faking a british accent.  Plus I was just curious, that seems like the correct way to pronounce it, and wondered why we pronounced it "Not-See."

[opebo]

My view of the Nazi economic policy is pretty simple - they would do whatever they though was of benefit to the Nazi Party, which to them was pretty much the same thing as the nation. If they needed to force a business to do something, they would do it. If leaving a business alone to do what it did was beneficial, they'd do that. The policy was simply whatever it took to push the Nazi agenda and the Nazi war machine forward. Overall, their policies might be considered socialist, but they really didn't have a consistent economic theory or ideology that they ran on.

They didn't 'force' businesses to do anything - they simply contracted things out just like any other military-industrial complex.  Huge profits were made!  You are all enormously exaggerating the difference between Nazi Germany and the US.

[Bono]

My view of the Nazi economic policy is pretty simple - they would do whatever they though was of benefit to the Nazi Party, which to them was pretty much the same thing as the nation. If they needed to force a business to do something, they would do it. If leaving a business alone to do what it did was beneficial, they'd do that. The policy was simply whatever it took to push the Nazi agenda and the Nazi war machine forward. Overall, their policies might be considered socialist, but they really didn't have a consistent economic theory or ideology that they ran on.

They didn't 'force' businesses to do anything - they simply contracted things out just like any other military-industrial complex.  Huge profits were made!  You are all enormously exaggerating the difference between Nazi Germany and the US.

The Us hasn't imposed price controls since Nixon, the last socialist president, was in power.

[opebo]

My view of the Nazi economic policy is pretty simple - they would do whatever they though was of benefit to the Nazi Party, which to them was pretty much the same thing as the nation. If they needed to force a business to do something, they would do it. If leaving a business alone to do what it did was beneficial, they'd do that. The policy was simply whatever it took to push the Nazi agenda and the Nazi war machine forward. Overall, their policies might be considered socialist, but they really didn't have a consistent economic theory or ideology that they ran on.

They didn't 'force' businesses to do anything - they simply contracted things out just like any other military-industrial complex.  Huge profits were made!  You are all enormously exaggerating the difference between Nazi Germany and the US.

The Us hasn't imposed price controls since Nixon, the last socialist president, was in power.

So?

[minionofmidas]

I just watched "Bedknobs and Broomsticks" and I was curious because that's the way they pronouced in the flim.  Wondered if the guy who said it was actually british, or was faking a british accent.  Plus I was just curious, that seems like the correct way to pronounce it, and wondered why we pronounced it "Not-See."

If you make the a (of Not) overlong and the i (of See) too short but keep the vowel values pretty much where they are, you're pretty close.

[minionofmidas]

According to you, on both extremes there is high government intervention. Where is small government, then?

As an ideology? Off scale due to lack of coherence.
As a preferred means? All over the scale, just as what you call government intervention.

What matters, on a simple left-right scale, is how democratically decisions are made.

[Bono]

According to you, on both extremes there is high government intervention. Where is small government, then?

As an ideology? Off scale due to lack of coherence.
As a preferred means? All over the scale, just as what you call government intervention.

What matters, on a simple left-right scale, is how democratically decisions are made.

What do you mean lack of coherence.

[opebo]

According to you, on both extremes there is high government intervention. Where is small government, then?

'Small government' ideologies are deceptive.  In fact the State is still the most powerful and formative force in society even in 'laissez faire' capitalism, because it uses violence upon the working classes to preserve the privilege of the owning class.  Regardless of its 'size', it is still the force which arranges the population into a heirarchy, and ensures some get more than others.

[Gustaf]

National socialism, IMHO, is a very peculiar ideology that cannot be identified with any other (as opposed to fascism which is more of a pro-state out-of-control version of conservatism). Nazism is definitely very totalitarian which makes it anti-liberal. It's also anti-intellectual, you might want to say irrational which makes t more anti-liberal. But Nazism also rejects religion and basically all moral traditions. It's definitely not conservative, since it pays no respect to tradition whatsoever. At last, it's definitely not socialist. If nothing else, it denies class structure.

[Middle-aged Europe]

My view of the Nazi economic policy is pretty simple - they would do whatever they though was of benefit to the Nazi Party, which to them was pretty much the same thing as the nation. If they needed to force a business to do something, they would do it. If leaving a business alone to do what it did was beneficial, they'd do that. The policy was simply whatever it took to push the Nazi agenda and the Nazi war machine forward. Overall, their policies might be considered socialist, but they really didn't have a consistent economic theory or ideology that they ran on.

Couldn't have said it better.

Unlike most (if not all) other political ideologies, economic policies were not a central part of Nazism. It was merely a useful tool to achieve their actual goals... which didn't have much to do with the economy (but with "race", "nation" etc.).

Of course, in their earlier days (around 1920) they had some of these economic proto-theories you could perhaps call "socialist". But such theories are also explainable with a non-economic approach, because many companies, banks etc. in the Weimar Republic were owned by Jews... or at least this is what the Nazis wanted to believe. As a result, there was a direct connection between their anti-Semitism and their "socialism".

Once the Nazis were in power, those theories didn't play much role anymore. In the few cases where Jews were indeed on the board of major companies, they were forced out. As far as the remaining "Aryan" businessmen were concerned... those were sometimes cuddled and sometimes tightly regulated by the Nazis, depending which helped their goals best.

And you have also to keep in mind that the Nazis were also strictly anti-labor union during the Weimar Republic, something you don't call "socialist" usually.

[Bono]

My view of the Nazi economic policy is pretty simple - they would do whatever they though was of benefit to the Nazi Party, which to them was pretty much the same thing as the nation. If they needed to force a business to do something, they would do it. If leaving a business alone to do what it did was beneficial, they'd do that. The policy was simply whatever it took to push the Nazi agenda and the Nazi war machine forward. Overall, their policies might be considered socialist, but they really didn't have a consistent economic theory or ideology that they ran on.

Couldn't have said it better.

Unlike most (if not all) other political ideologies, economic policies were not a central part of Nazism. It was merely a useful tool to achieve their actual goals... which didn't have much to do with the economy (but with "race", "nation" etc.).

Of course, in their earlier days (around 1920) they had some of these economic proto-theories you could perhaps call "socialist". But such theories are also explainable with a non-economic approach, because many companies, banks etc. in the Weimar Republic were owned by Jews... or at least this is what the Nazis wanted to believe. As a result, there was a direct connection between their anti-Semitism and their "socialism".

Once the Nazis were in power, those theories didn't play much role anymore. In the few cases where Jews were indeed on the board of major companies, they were forced out. As far as the remaining "Aryan" businessmen were concerned... those were sometimes cuddled and sometimes tightly regulated by the Nazis, depending which helped their goals best.

And you have also to keep in mind that the Nazis were also strictly anti-labor union during the Weimar Republic, something you don't call "socialist" usually.

What about the price controls?
Or regulating supply and demand?

[Middle-aged Europe]

What about the price controls?
Or regulating supply and demand?

This depends on whether we're talking about price controls etc. as programmatic goals from the era of the Weimar Republic or as the actually implented policy once they were in power. The one thing didn't have much to do with the other thing sometimes.

In the first case, a possible explanation could be again anti-Semitism, because the "exploitation of the German worker through Jewish businessmen" had to be ended. In the second case, it could also be seen as measures to prepare the economy for war. Or they simply wanted to "buy" the support of the "common man" for their policies.

Hitler himself didn't have a clue about economy. And he didn't care about the economy. He simply didn't know what to do with it. So he left this matter to other government or party officials. He was pleased as long as everything went according to the plan and enough weapons were produced. This lead to the point where the economic policy of the Third Reich was the result of ideological fightings and rivalries between different groups within the party and the government.

In a rather, uh, "romantic" way, some Nazis saw the agriculture as the "natural and original form of life" for the Aryan man. As a result they tried everything to keep damage from the agricultural sector of the economy and had a suspicious eye on the other sectors, because they were seen as "unnatural" or "un-Aryan". Nazis who ran small businesses wanted to have small businesses totally unregulated and big business (which was controlled by the Jews anyway, according to them) heavily regulated etc.

[Bono]

What about the price controls?
Or regulating supply and demand?

This depends on whether we're talking about price controls etc. as programmatic goals from the era of the Weimar Republic or as the actually implented policy once they were in power. The one thing didn't have much to do with the other thing sometimes.

In the first case, a possible explanation could be again anti-Semitism, because the "exploitation of the German worker through Jewish businessmen" had to be ended. In the second case, it could also be seen as measures to prepare the economy for war. Or they simply wanted to "buy" the support of the "common man" for their policies.

Hitler himself didn't have a clue about economy. And he didn't care about the economy. He simply didn't know what to do with it. So he left this matter to other government or party officials. He was pleased as long as everything went according to the plan and enough weapons were produced. This lead to the point where the economic policy of the Third Reich was the result of ideological fightings and rivalries between different groups within the party and the government.

In a rather, uh, "romantic" way, some Nazis saw the agriculture as the "natural and original form of life" for the Aryan man. As a result they tried everything to keep damage from the agricultural sector of the economy and had a suspicious eye on the other sectors, because they were seen as "unnatural" or "un-Aryan". Nazis who ran small businesses wanted to have small businesses totally unregulated and big business (which was controlled by the Jews anyway, according to them) heavily regulated etc.

So, the end policies were socialistic, regardless of ideological motivation behind them.
This is what I'm arguing.

[Middle-aged Europe]

So, the end policies were socialistic, regardless of ideological motivation behind them.
This is what I'm arguing.

Only when it seemed to fit the goals.