Atlasian Sovereignty Restoration Act (Withdrawn)
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
April 19, 2024, 10:14:14 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  Atlas Fantasy Elections
  Atlas Fantasy Government (Moderators: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee, Lumine)
  Atlasian Sovereignty Restoration Act (Withdrawn)
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2]
Author Topic: Atlasian Sovereignty Restoration Act (Withdrawn)  (Read 3718 times)
Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2005, 12:13:12 PM »

short answer: Atlasia already isn't terribly well liked.

Okay...  I still don't understand.  Getting out of the U.N. will make the world hate us more?  For what reason?  I'm sorry if my questions are getting tiresome, but I'd really like to understand why we need the U.N.

It will add to the perception that the country couldn't care less about what's happening outside it's borders, that it's not interested in co-operation, conciliation and negotiation but only in unilateral action to meet it's own interests without any regard to the possible wider effects.
Logged
CheeseWhiz
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,538


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2005, 12:16:45 PM »

short answer: Atlasia already isn't terribly well liked.

Okay...  I still don't understand.  Getting out of the U.N. will make the world hate us more?  For what reason?  I'm sorry if my questions are getting tiresome, but I'd really like to understand why we need the U.N.

It will add to the perception that the country couldn't care less about what's happening outside it's borders, that it's not interested in co-operation, conciliation and negotiation but only in unilateral action to meet it's own interests without any regard to the possible wider effects.

And we aren't? Tongue

I thought the rest of the World thinks we had too much say, and wants us to mind our own business, but I'm probably wrong about that, no?

Not trying to sound selfish, but what does the U.N. do for us?
Logged
afleitch
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,847


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2005, 12:31:52 PM »

The UN is not meant to be a' tool' that does favours for each nation that is a member. It is a world forum whose decions do not threaten the sovereignty of its member states. It is a force for good, but a place where reform is needed. Withdrawal by the US would damage both it's legitimacy and it's effectiveness and as a result could threaten stability the world over.
Logged
CheeseWhiz
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,538


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2005, 12:38:03 PM »

The UN is not meant to be a' tool' that does favours for each nation that is a member.

Never meant to suggest it was.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

I see.  Well, thank you for taking the time to give me an explanation, although it does sound a little "doomsday."  I don't know, it still sounds like something we'd be perfectly capable of handling ourselves.
Logged
Joe Republic
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 40,073
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2005, 12:58:44 PM »

I believe one of the main reasons why the League of Nations failed to stop the rise of the Axis Powers before WWII was that America was not a part of it, and therefore could not be the forceful mediator that it is (or should be) in the UN today.
Logged
CheeseWhiz
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,538


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2005, 01:03:39 PM »

I believe one of the main reasons why the League of Nations failed to stop the rise of the Axis Powers before WWII was that America was not a part of it, and therefore could not be the forceful mediator that it is (or should be) in the UN today.

Very interesting, I'd like to hear what those that support this bill have to say in response to that.
Logged
Bono
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,699
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2005, 01:42:15 PM »

I believe one of the main reasons why the League of Nations failed to stop the rise of the Axis Powers before WWII was that America was not a part of it, and therefore could not be the forceful mediator that it is (or should be) in the UN today.

Very interesting, I'd like to hear what those that support this bill have to say in response to that.

THe reason the Axis even rose is becuase France and England let ther bitter nationalistic resentments get ahold of them and soght to humilitate Germany in teh treaty of Versailles.
WWII would have happened, with or without the US in the league of nations.
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,678
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2005, 05:11:08 PM »

THe reason the Axis even rose is becuase France and England let ther bitter nationalistic resentments get ahold of them and soght to humilitate Germany in teh treaty of Versailles.

Germany's territorial losses inflicted in Paris were well within the norm for the time, probably less than normal actually and certainly a great deal less than the gains Germany got off Russia in the treaty of Brest-Livotsk. The deal Germany got as far as Poland was concerned was extremely favourable.
The part that caused all the problems was the French demands for huge reparations, something that Clemenceau wasn't prepared to back down on or compromise much over.
Logged
Bono
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,699
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2005, 05:15:40 PM »

THe reason the Axis even rose is becuase France and England let ther bitter nationalistic resentments get ahold of them and soght to humilitate Germany in teh treaty of Versailles.

Germany's territorial losses inflicted in Paris were well within the norm for the time, probably less than normal actually and certainly a great deal less than the gains Germany got off Russia in the treaty of Brest-Livotsk. The deal Germany got as far as Poland was concerned was extremely favourable.
The part that caused all the problems was the French demands for huge reparations, something that Clemenceau wasn't prepared to back down on or compromise much over.

The reparations were exactly what I meant. Also creating a lot of pseudo-states in eastern europe didn't really help. Nor cutting Italy and Portugal out of the lootage. Tongue
Logged
TomC
TCash101
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,973


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2005, 06:18:54 PM »



Not trying to sound selfish, but what does the U.N. do for us?

Somebody once put it quite well:
"We're a freedom-loving nation and if we are an arrogant nation [foreign countries] will view us that way, but if we're a humble nation they'll respect us."

What does being a respected part of the international economy do for us? What does having partners in the War on Terror do for our military and our soldiers and our security? There's this group that has at least some say and influence in world matters; why would we NOT want to be a part of that group?
Logged
Bono
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,699
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2005, 04:55:30 AM »



Not trying to sound selfish, but what does the U.N. do for us?

Somebody once put it quite well:
"We're a freedom-loving nation and if we are an arrogant nation [foreign countries] will view us that way, but if we're a humble nation they'll respect us."

What does being a respected part of the international economy do for us? What does having partners in the War on Terror do for our military and our soldiers and our security? There's this group that has at least some say and influence in world matters; why would we NOT want to be a part of that group?
Let's see:
It's a corrupt bureocracy who wants to become a One World Government;
It has repeatedly, probably to the joys of Secretary True "New World Order", to implement a worldwide gun ban;
Lately, it's been trying to take over the internet;
It's ruled by a bunch of dictators and their patronage appointments;
On the United Nations Conference on Human Settlements (Habitat I), held in Vancouver, May 31 - June 11, 1976. Agenda Item 10 of the Conference Report sets forth the UN's official policy on land. The Preamble says:

      "Land...cannot be treated as an ordinary asset, controlled by individuals and subject to the pressures and inefficiencies of the market. Private land ownership is also a principal instrument of accumulation and concentration of wealth and therefore contributes to social injustice; if unchecked, it may become a major obstacle in the planning and implementation of development schemes. The provision of decent dwellings and healthy conditions for the people can only be achieved if land is used in the interests of society as a whole. Public control of land use is therefore indispensable...."

The Preamble is followed by nine pages of specific policy recommendations endorsed by the participating nations, including the United states. Here are some of those recommendations:

Recommendation A.1

      (b) All countries should establish as a matter of urgency a national policy on human settlements, embodying the distribution of population...over the national territory.

      (c)(v) Such a policy should be devised to facilitate population redistribution to accord with the availability of resources.

Recommendation D.1

      (a) Public ownership or effective control of land in the public interest is the single most important means of...achieving a more equitable distribution of the benefits of development whilst assuring that environmental impacts are considered.

      (b) Land is a scarce resource whose management should be subject to public surveillance or control in the interest of the nation.

      (d) Governments must maintain full jurisdiction and exercise complete sovereignty over such land with a view to freely planning development of human settlements....

Recommendation D.2

      (a) Agricultural land, particularly on the periphery of urban areas, is an important national resource; without public control land is prey to speculation and urban encroachment.

      (b) Change in the use of land...should be subject to public control and regulation.

      (c) Such control may be exercised through:

            (i) Zoning and land-use planning as a basic instrument of land policy in general and of control of land-use changes in particular;

            (ii) Direct intervention, e.g. the creation of land reserves and land banks, purchase, compensated expropriation and/or pre-emption, acquisition of development rights, conditioned leasing of public and communal land, formation of public and mixed development enterprises;

            (iii) Legal controls, e.g. compulsory registration, changes in administrative boundaries, development building and local permits, assembly and replotting.

Recommendation D.3

      (a) Excessive profits resulting from the increase in land value due to development and change in use are one of the principal causes of the concentration of wealth in private hands. Taxation should not be seen only as a source of revenue for the community but also as a powerful tool to encourage development of desirable locations, to exercise a controlling effect on the land market and to redistribute to the public at large the benefits of the unearned increase in land values.

      (b) The unearned increment resulting from the rise in land values resulting from change in use of land, from public investment or decision or due to the general growth of the community must be subject to appropriate recapture by public bodies.

Recommendation D.4

      (a) Public ownership of land cannot be an end in itself; it is justified in so far as it is exercised in favour of the common good rather than to protect the interests of the already privileged.

      (b) Public ownership should be used to secure and control areas of urban expansion and protection; and to implement urban and rural land reform processes, and supply serviced land at price levels which can secure socially acceptable patterns of development.

Recommendation D.5

      (b) Past patterns of ownership rights should be transformed to match the changing needs of society and be collectively beneficial.

      (c)(v) Methods for the separation of land ownership rights from development rights, the latter to be entrusted to a public authority.

The official U.S. delegation that endorsed these recommendations includes familiar names. Carla A. Hills, then-Secretary of Housing and Urban Development became George Bush's Chief trade negotiator. William K. Reilly, then-head of the Conservation Foundation, became Bush's Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency. Among the NGOs (non-government organizations) present, were: International Planned Parenthood Federation; World Federation of United Nations Associations; International Union for the Conservation of Nature (IUCN); World Association of World Federalists; Friends of the Earth; National Audubon Society; National Parks and Conservation Association; Natural Resources Defense Council; and the Sierra Club.1

These ideas came to America in the form of the Federal Land Use Planning Act which failed twice in Congress during the 1970s. Federal regions were created and the principles of the UN land policy were implemented administratively to the maximum extent possible. NGOs were at work even then, lobbying for the implementation of UN land policy at the state and local level. Both Florida and Oregon enacted state Comprehensive Planning Acts. Florida created state districts and multi-county agencies to govern land and water use. Most states, however, were slow to embrace the UN initiative toward centralized planning and land management.

Logged
Bono
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,699
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2005, 04:56:58 AM »

For those who argue that the UN is just a forum where nations can argue their differences, if we had some means of assuring that the United Nations would never go beyond that function, it might be tolerable, but the effectiveness of such a forum would still be highly dubious. Author G. Edward Griffin offers the following analogy to illustrate the folly of expecting the UN to be a workable platform for dealing with world grievances:

Consider what would happen if every time a small spat arose between a husband and wife they called the entire neighborhood together and took turns airing their complaints in front of the whole group. Gone would be any chance of reconciliation. Instead of working out their problems, the ugly necessity of saving face, proving points, and winning popular sympathy would likely drive them further apart. Likewise, public debates in the UN intensify international tensions. By shouting their grievances at each other, countries allow their differences to assume a magnitude they would otherwise never have reached. Quiet diplomacy is always more conducive to progress than diplomacy on the stage.51

At the UN, of course, bellicose "diplomacy on the stage" has always been the order of the day. "Not only has the United Nations become a travesty and farce as a unified system of political world government," noted William Henry Chamberlain long ago, "but its meetings and operations have contributed greatly to international disunity, hostility, and bellicosity. Its meetings provide an unprecedented platform and sounding board for denunciation, vituperation, and bitter accusations."52
Logged
Bono
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,699
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2005, 04:58:51 AM »

http://www.sovereignty.net/p/land/unproprts.htm

More on UN and land
Logged
Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2005, 10:18:16 AM »

Bono, what weight and effect do the UN reccomendations on land have?
Logged
Bono
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,699
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2005, 12:11:42 PM »

Bono, what weight and effect do the UN reccomendations on land have?
[/quote

To show the spirit of the organization, a lot.
Logged
Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2005, 12:34:11 PM »

Bono, what weight and effect do the UN reccomendations on land have?

To show the spirit of the organization, a lot.

How likely, do you think, is it that these reccomendations will ever carry the force of law within national jurisdictions, particularly in Atlasia?
Logged
Bono
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,699
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2005, 02:31:42 PM »

Bono, what weight and effect do the UN reccomendations on land have?

To show the spirit of the organization, a lot.

How likely, do you think, is it that these reccomendations will ever carry the force of law within national jurisdictions, particularly in Atlasia?

What could be administratively implemented, without congress passing a law, has been.
Logged
Platypus
hughento
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 21,478
Australia


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2005, 10:40:57 PM »

Bono, what weight and effect do the UN reccomendations on land have?

To show the spirit of the organization, a lot.

How likely, do you think, is it that these reccomendations will ever carry the force of law within national jurisdictions, particularly in Atlasia?

What could be administratively implemented, without congress passing a law, has been.
Logged
Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2005, 07:25:43 AM »

Bono, what weight and effect do the UN reccomendations on land have?

To show the spirit of the organization, a lot.

How likely, do you think, is it that these reccomendations will ever carry the force of law within national jurisdictions, particularly in Atlasia?

What could be administratively implemented, without congress passing a law, has been.

And what effect has that which has been administratively implentented had?
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.057 seconds with 11 queries.