Noah's Ark

[Gabu]

You all need to think out of the box* (so to speak) a little more over this... same goes for a lot lot of the OT.

*By this I don't mean picking and choosing what to believe depending on other viewpoints

Personally, my take on the story of Noah's Ark is that a huge flood probably did actually happen at some point in time that did kill a lot of people, but it neither was sent by God nor killed everything on Earth.  It probably got embellished over time until it became what we know today.  There are way too many things in the literal version of it that just don't make any sense or that are not physically possible.

[David S]

Jesus was once asked why he used parables in his teachings. He said because its easier for the people to understand and remember the lessons that way. IMHO the story of the flood is such a parable.

[Joe Republic]

Jesus was once asked why he used parables in his teachings. He said because its easier for the people to understand and remember the lessons that way. IMHO the story of the flood is such a parable.

I agree, which is why the story is there in the first place.  But there will always be a 'special' few who don't know what metaphors are.

[Richard]

The logical consequences of the story of Noah's Ark are astounding if it is indeed literally true:

You really do not know your Bible.

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The Bible says nothing of acquatic animals.  And, the ark is really, really big.

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God sent the animals to Noah.  If God can do that, he can presumably make them peaceful.

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Meat was not consumed before the Flood.

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The water-vapor canopy that surrounded the earth collapsed.  Also, the fountains of the deep were opened.  There is a lot of water under the crust of the earth.

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Thats assuming the surface features before the Flood are the same as it is today.  How can you make such an assumption?  And who said abything about having to evaporate all the water?  It can seep into the earth.


And yes, I do believe a universal flood.  Almost every single culture on the planet has a flood myth going.  Coincidence?  I think not.

- There are hundreds of thousands of species of animal.  Noah would have had to build his ark large enough to accomodate two of everything.  If we reject the theory of evolution, this includes such things as two elephants, two rhinoceroses, and all of the acquatic life present on the planet, including all of the whales (and presumably he would need to build a tank big enough to hold all of the acquatic life, since he needed to keep them alive for forty days and forty nights).

Not only that, but Genesis also states that there were only eight pairs of animals on board: seven 'clean' pairs of animals, and one 'unclean' pair.

You also didn't read your Bible.  Before you go and make such senseless comments, you may want to check your Bible.  I suggest you go back and read it over again and report back.

Jesus was once asked why he used parables in his teachings. He said because its easier for the people to understand and remember the lessons that way. IMHO the story of the flood is such a parable.

Perhaps, but the ark sitting on mount Ararat is a rather inconvenient piece of proof that needs to be explained away.  How would you do that?

[Gabu]

The Bible says nothing of acquatic animals.

It says that all life on Earth would perish, and we have animals that live in the ocean today.  Did God fail to kill those animals?

And, the ark is really, really big.

It's not "really, really big" if you run through the list of all species on Earth and realize how many there are.

God sent the animals to Noah.  If God can do that, he can presumably make them peaceful.

If God could do all that, then why did he need Noah to do the rest?

Meat was not consumed before the Flood.

Carnivorous animals such as lions did not exist before the flood?  I'm not talking about what Noah would have eaten.

Thats assuming the surface features before the Flood are the same as it is today.

Even if there was a peak on the earth 100 meters high, it still would take a whole lot of water to drown anyone on top of it.

[Richard]

God sent the animals to Noah.  If God can do that, he can presumably make them peaceful.

If God could do all that, then why did he need Noah to do the rest?

Maybe you should pray and ask God.  I don't have all the answers; I'm just reciting what the Bible states.

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Carnivorous animals such as lions did not exist before the flood?  I'm not talking about what Noah would have eaten.[/quote]
I didn't say that, did I?  Maybe you can think a bit more and it will dawn you.  I re-iterate: meat was not consumed before the Flood.

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Even if there was a peak on the earth 100 meters high, it still would take a whole lot of water to drown anyone on top of it.
[/quote]
And a water-vapor canopy around the earth would be a lot of water.

[afleitch]

Humans have been eating meat for millennia. A look at fossil dental records and your own teeth will show you that

[John Dibble]

Jesus was once asked why he used parables in his teachings. He said because its easier for the people to understand and remember the lessons that way. IMHO the story of the flood is such a parable.

Perhaps, but the ark sitting on mount Ararat is a rather inconvenient piece of proof that needs to be explained away.  How would you do that?

Correct me if I'm wrong - but has one actually been found there? I just did a check on this and while some people have claimed to have seen a 'boat-like' object, but no real proof of it has been found as far as I know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah%27s_ark#Modern_searches

[MODU]

I believe it to be true, but one needs to define what the "world" was during the time of the flood.  By the time of Noah, there were many cities, but still closely consolidated in the Mesopotamian area.  So, a flood would only have to wash out that area in order for it to be considered "the world."  Some scientists have examined the area of the Black Sea floor and have seen evidence of what appears to be ancient rivers and coastlines.  Their theory is that a wall holding back the Mediterranean Sea gave way, and flooded out the Black Sea "valley."  Such a rush of water could be seen as a global flood if the Old Testament settlements were in that area.  And if that is the "world" in discussion, then the types of animals needed to be saved would be much less, since most of your animals live outside of that region.

[Gabu]

God sent the animals to Noah.  If God can do that, he can presumably make them peaceful.

If God could do all that, then why did he need Noah to do the rest?

Maybe you should pray and ask God.  I don't have all the answers; I'm just reciting what the Bible states.

Or, perhaps you could the power of logic instead of just blindly reciting the contents of the Bible as if it were known to be the absolute truth.  Or would that be too much effort?

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Carnivorous animals such as lions did not exist before the flood?  I'm not talking about what Noah would have eaten.

I didn't say that, did I?  Maybe you can think a bit more and it will dawn you.  I re-iterate: meat was not consumed before the Flood.
[/quote]

I don't know what you're saying, and it will help things along greatly if you just say it instead of attempting to be mysterious about it.

[afleitch]

Don't waste your breath Gabu. Why fight with a bunch of puritans who conveniently ignore hundreds of years of historical study and scientific knowledge in order to defend the Bible. Thank Christ i'm Catholic. The Church may eb a bit nuts sometimes but at least it understands history and science and intreprets the Bible for what it truly is.

[Richard]

Jesus was once asked why he used parables in his teachings. He said because its easier for the people to understand and remember the lessons that way. IMHO the story of the flood is such a parable.

Perhaps, but the ark sitting on mount Ararat is a rather inconvenient piece of proof that needs to be explained away.  How would you do that?

Correct me if I'm wrong - but has one actually been found there? I just did a check on this and while some people have claimed to have a 'boat-like' object, but no real proof of it has been found as far as I know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah%27s_ark#Modern_searches

OK.  You're going to have to do better than citing someone's opinion.  While I haven't visited the ark myself, I've seen video footage, and if you talk to the locals in the area, they will tell you about the great boat up there.  There is also an altar, and several large anchors.  Do I have proof?  Nothing more than books that I've read and some video footage.  Will I eventually go up there?  Yes.

Maybe Google Earth will show it to us.  I know the Russians knew about it and wanted to explore it in the Soviet Era.

I believe it to be true, but one needs to define what the "world" was during the time of the flood.  By the time of Noah, there were many cities, but still closely consolidated in the Mesopotamian area.

Says who?

Or, perhaps you could the power of logic instead of just blindly reciting the contents of the Bible as if it were known to be the absolute truth.  Or would that be too much effort?

I wasn't making an argument; I was telling you what the Bible said.  Take it at that, or leave it.

I don't know what you're saying, and it will help things along greatly if you just say it instead of attempting to be mysterious about it.

Maybe if you fired an extra neuron...  Its easy to put two and two together: Lions and other carnivores were vegetarians prior to the Flood.

[MODU]

I believe it to be true, but one needs to define what the "world" was during the time of the flood.  By the time of Noah, there were many cities, but still closely consolidated in the Mesopotamian area.

Says who?

Read the Bible.  It gives you the number generations between the time of Adam to Noah.  And when you read the stories that the off-spring lived with and/or near their parents in tribes, you can safely conclude that the early settlements did not leave the Middle Eastern lands by the time of the flood.

[Richard]

I believe it to be true, but one needs to define what the "world" was during the time of the flood.  By the time of Noah, there were many cities, but still closely consolidated in the Mesopotamian area.

Says who?

Read the Bible.  It gives you the number generations between the time of Adam to Noah.  And when you read the stories that the off-spring lived with and/or near their parents in tribes, you can safely conclude that the early settlements did not leave the Middle Eastern lands by the time of the flood.

The Bible does not say only the Mesopotamian area was inhibited.  The Bible also states people lived to be 900 years of age.  In that time period, it is easy for women to have 500 or more kids in a lifetime.  Combined with the fact that they will also live 900 years, I estimate in 2,000 years the population would have been close to 11 billion people.

[afleitch]

And how could they feed those 11 billion people with primitive farming methods?

[John Dibble]

Jesus was once asked why he used parables in his teachings. He said because its easier for the people to understand and remember the lessons that way. IMHO the story of the flood is such a parable.

Perhaps, but the ark sitting on mount Ararat is a rather inconvenient piece of proof that needs to be explained away.  How would you do that?

Correct me if I'm wrong - but has one actually been found there? I just did a check on this and while some people have claimed to have a 'boat-like' object, but no real proof of it has been found as far as I know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah%27s_ark#Modern_searches

OK.  You're going to have to do better than citing someone's opinion.  While I haven't visited the ark myself, I've seen video footage, and if you talk to the locals in the area, they will tell you about the great boat up there.  There is also an altar, and several large anchors.  Do I have proof?  Nothing more than books that I've read and some video footage.  Will I eventually go up there?  Yes.

Maybe Google Earth will show it to us.  I know the Russians knew about it and wanted to explore it in the Soviet Era.

Mind linking your video footage? All I've found is this satellite photo that sparked the attempt at an expedition in 2004. (Frankly, I don't really see that as an ark, but what do I know?)

And Richius, while I know Wikipedia isn't a definitive source and may contain opinion at times, "the books I've read" are not exactly a credible source.

[Richard]

And how could they feed those 11 billion people with primitive farming methods?

Who said anything about primitive farming methods?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Jesus was once asked why he used parables in his teachings. He said because its easier for the people to understand and remember the lessons that way. IMHO the story of the flood is such a parable.

I agree, which is why the story is there in the first place.  But there will always be a 'special' few who don't know what metaphors are.

Just because Jesus at times used parables, doesn't make the story of Noah a parable.

In fact, when Jesus spoke of Noah, he wasn't even speaking in parables.  He referred to the flood in the literal sense and added additional details to the account, such as how the people of the world were going about their day to day business:  planting, marrying, building...up to the day Noah entered the ark and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Peter also added additional details about the account, such as Noah being a preacher and God waiting patiently for Noah to build and complete the huge Ark.

The account of the Flood is not treated by the latter parts of the bible any differently than any other story in the bible, except from the fact that it is viewed as a very significant event.

[Joe Republic]

Sounds like they were just making it up as they were going along.

[Richard]

John: I'd love to link to the video footage, but it is on VHS.  There are DVDs around, but I haven't bought them due to a lack of funds.  Maybe in the future.  The documentary is about 2 hours long and documents the tale of the expidition up Mount Ararat.

The picture you linked looks like it may be the ark, but I cannot say.  The peaks are covered by viscious snow storms.  Unfortunately, due the earthquake, the ark is now split into two pieces.

You're not going to give me credible evidence online, and I can't show you books.  I suggest if you're really interested in this, pick up some books (I can recommend a few) and read them.  They can explain it much better than I can in a simple online forum.  Since it is neither my interest nor my inclination to make a case here (I'd refer you to material if you're interested), the point is moot.

And no, I don't buy into all the bloody conspiracy theories websites that may cover Noah's ark.  I believe solid scientific evidence is required if I'm going to make a factual statement.  And right now I'm making such a statement: there is a huge bloody boat up on Mount Ararat.

[MODU]

I believe it to be true, but one needs to define what the "world" was during the time of the flood.  By the time of Noah, there were many cities, but still closely consolidated in the Mesopotamian area.

Says who?

Read the Bible.  It gives you the number generations between the time of Adam to Noah.  And when you read the stories that the off-spring lived with and/or near their parents in tribes, you can safely conclude that the early settlements did not leave the Middle Eastern lands by the time of the flood.

The Bible does not say only the Mesopotamian area was inhibited.  The Bible also states people lived to be 900 years of age.  In that time period, it is easy for women to have 500 or more kids in a lifetime.  Combined with the fact that they will also live 900 years, I estimate in 2,000 years the population would have been close to 11 billion people.

*dies laughin*  Ok, now you're just being rediculous.

Anyway, the Bible (and archeology) does say that the Mesopotamian area is the center of the Biblical world.  Going all the way back to Genesis 2:10-14:

10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin [a] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

These rivers are located wholey in the Mesopotamia region.  An no, there were no 11 Billion people at that point in time.

[afleitch]

There is a boatlike formation on the mountain that could be caused by erosion or geological formations. Just like the 'face' on Mars. Looks man made, but probably isn't.

[Gabu]

And how could they feed those 11 billion people with primitive farming methods?

Who said anything about primitive farming methods?

You're quite the fan of the deus ex machina, aren't you?

[Joe Republic]

And how could they feed those 11 billion people with primitive farming methods?

Who said anything about primitive farming methods?

You're quite the fan of the deus ex machina, aren't you?

I was thinking the very same thing.  Whenever you counter this story as being completely illogical and unlikely in so many ways, the believers keep coming back with, "Well, God made it so because he's all-powerful".  A nice get-out clause, if ever I saw one.

[Richard]

*dies laughin*  Ok, now you're just being rediculous.

Really?  Prove it.  I can show you the population growth equations.  You really think people that live to age 900 are going to have one or two or three kids?

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I don't see anything that states people only lived in Mesopotamia.

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How do you know?

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There was a bloody archeological and geological expedition up there in 1985.  They used radar to map the boat.  It isn't just "geological formations" as you claim.  You're very unedcuated.

And how could they feed those 11 billion people with primitive farming methods?

Who said anything about primitive farming methods?

You're quite the fan of the deus ex machina, aren't you?

Just sick and tired of people making unsubstantiated assumptions.