Decision: CheeseWhiz v. Senate of Atlasia
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  Decision: CheeseWhiz v. Senate of Atlasia
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Author Topic: Decision: CheeseWhiz v. Senate of Atlasia  (Read 1714 times)
Peter
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« on: December 08, 2005, 03:44:06 PM »

Unfortunately, Emsworth and I have had no contact from Ernest and according to his profile, he has not been active since the 3rd. He knew of the case since Emsworth and I discussed the stay with him. Not wishing to extend this any further, Emsworth and I have decided the case in his absence. I'd like to thank Emsworth for his research of real life Supreme Court precedent on this matter.

The Chief Justice and Justice Emsworth delivered the opinion of the Court. Justice Ernest took no part in the decision of this case.

Petitioner requests that we declare void the passage of the Removal of the Balanced Budget Requirement Amendment (hereinafter The Amendment), declared passed on 2 December 2005, for failing to acquire the Constitutionally required number of Senators in the Senate, and to consequently declare void the number of public polls already begun on The Amendment. Respondents contend that this court has no jurisdiction over the dispute, and that the case should accordingly be dismissed.

This case presents many questions, not only is the interpretation of a passage of text within the Constitution in question, but there is also a question surrounding who has the ultimate power to decide its meaning. The text in question is contained in Article VII, Section 1 of the Constitution:

    "The Senate, whenever two-thirds of its number shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution."

There are also various passages in Article I that will be implicated in its interpretation.


I

Whilst there is no explicit mention of a power to interpret the Constitution being granted to this Court, this does not preclude its existence. Under Article III, Section 1, Clause 1 this Court is vested with the "judicial power of the Republic": Judicial power is synonymous with the power to be the arbiter of what the Law means; In our case this congizes the power to be the arbiter of both the Constitution and federal statute.

Similarly there is no explicitly mentioned power to enforce the Laws, however Article II vests in the President the "executive power". This is synonymous with granting him the power to enforce the Laws, just as "judicial power" is synonymous with the power to interpret them.

The Supreme Court of the United States has, on various occasions, been called upon to decide whether a constitutional amendment was passed or ratified in the proper manner. The passage of the Eleventh Amendment, for example, was challenged in Hollingsworth v. Virginia (1798). Similarly, various aspects of the passage or ratification of the Eighteenth Amendment were questioned in Hawke v. Smith (1920), the National Prohibition Cases (1920), Dillon v. Gloss (1921), and United States v. Sprague (1931). The ratification of the Nineteenth Amendment was considered in Leser v. Garnett (1922).

In all of these cases, the Supreme Court agreed that the question was a judicial one, and reached its conclusions on the merits. In one of them (Hawke v. Smith), the procedure used by a state to ratify the Eighteenth Amendment was declared unconstitutional. The fact that the Supreme Court heard and determined these cases establishes an important principle: the validity of the procedure used to pass a constitutional amendment is a legal question, not a political one.

Any question where there exists a clear textual commitment of responsibility to a co-ordinate branch of government is a political question. There are some cases where this Court has no power of review, such as the substantive nature of an Impeachment where the question of determining guilt is clearly delegated to the People, and the power to indict to the Senate.

In our case there is no such commitment: We are simply provided the plain text with no indication as to who should determine the "number" of the Senate, though there is some indication in the text as to what exactly the number of the Senate is.

Some have claimed that the Senate's power to determine its own procedures under Article I, Section 3, Clause 1 encompasses a power to determine meaning here. This is simply false: the Senate may not change the meaning of words relating to its procedures in the Constitution; A "majority" is necessary to pass a bill or resolution - this word has clear textual meaning, yet if we were to agree with the argument presented, we would grant to the Senate a power to change the meaning of the word "majority". This power is definitely not granted under the Constitution and thus the argument must fail.

The question is thus clearly judicial in nature: It involves the meaning of Constitutional text and there is no textual commitment to another branch of government. Thusly, it falls to this Court to decide its meaning, and we do so now.


II

Two rival interpretations of the clause are put forward:

1. "[T]wo-thirds of [the] number" of the Senate refers to two-thirds of the total number of Senators sworn into office at a particular time.
2. "[T]wo-thirds of [the] number" of the Senate refers to two-thirds of those voting in the particular vote.

A plain text reading indicates to us that the "number" of the Senate clearly means the former. However, the question does not end here as there are several clauses that might invalidate such a naive approach to the plain text.

In support of the second, Article I, Section 3, Clause 2 is put forward:

    "The Senate shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum of Senators shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid."

This clause however only contains conditions for the vote to be ''valid'', not what conditions are required for an Amendment, Bill, etc. to pass. Thus for example, if the Senate were reduced to a membership of just four Senators, it could not pass an Amendment (or anything else) by a vote of 4-0 even though two-thirds of the number of the Senate had proposed the Amendment (under either interpretation) because the Senate would have failed to fulfil a quorum under the quoted clause.

We are also guided by Article I, Section 2, Clause 3 which deals with the Trial Phase of an Impeachment which explicitly states that "two-thirds of those voting" are necessary for a conviction. This seems to cognize something different from "two-thirds of [the] number", further adding weight to our earlier plain text evaluation of Article VII, Section 1.


III

It is undisputed that at the time of declared passage of The Amendment that there were ten Senators in office and that only six voted for its passage. Under our reading of Article VII, seven of the ten Senators are required to pass the Amendment. Thus the Amendment failed to pass the Senate and its passage should be declared void.

Further, all of the votes cast in the public polls so far were cast on an invalid Amendment. Thusly they cannot be allowed to stand either, and we order that all public polls opened on this Amendment to this point are declared void.

If The Amendment is declared to have passed at some point in the future with a two-thirds majority of the number of Senators sworn into office, new public polls will need to be opened.

It is so ordered.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2005, 04:08:48 PM »
« Edited: December 09, 2005, 08:27:22 AM by Senator Al, PPT »

Random insults made while not being well
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CheeseWhiz
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2005, 04:20:01 PM »

I really cannot see how you can call them activist judges when you failed to even try and argue your case, instead changing the topic to how the court could not even decide how to interpret the Constitution.  I’d really like to see how on Earth this is hypocritical, so if you want to point out where the actual flaws are, be my guest.

I don’t mean to be rude here Al, but you seem to be.  You didn’t even provide anything to back up your case, just a bunch of sarcastic remarks
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2005, 04:40:23 PM »

I really cannot see how you can call them activist judges when you failed to even try and argue your case, instead changing the topic to how the court could not even decide how to interpret the Constitution.

I did argue my case. On the basis that the Court has no right to make rulings over Senate procedure. Not that the Court was ever likely to listen to that arguement, but then again they weren't going to rule my way anyway.

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It uses a tight interpretation of the Constitution in places and flat out ignores it in others. It insists on the use of precedent in places and refuses to listen to it in others. And so on.

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Not *intentionally* at any rate...

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You mean in this thread? No point in defending my position as the trial is over and I can't appeal. As for the general sarkyness... that's got more to do with me being ill today and taking my irritation about that out on everything else.
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CheeseWhiz
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2005, 05:00:17 PM »

I did argue my case. On the basis that the Court has no right to make rulings over Senate procedure. Not that the Court was ever likely to listen to that arguement, but then again they weren't going to rule my way anyway.

Yes, and it was an interesting argument, but it should have come up in a whole different court case, imo.

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Could you give me some examples?

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You, or me?

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Well, there's also no point in throwing out meaningless criticism Smiley

I'm sorry to hear that, I do hope you get better Sad
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Brandon H
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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2005, 05:14:56 PM »

The Court (at least two of its members) addressed all three issues: Whether the Court has the authority to review this case, the meaning of two-thirds, and whether the vote was valid.

Al (not choosing sides here), if CheeseWhiz felt the vote passed the Senate illegally and wished to challenge the vote, what should the proper procedure have been? I don't think anyone can file a lawsuit inside the Senate itself.

Has Ernest given an explantion of his absence?
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KEmperor
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2005, 06:15:25 PM »

LOL, glad no one is yelling at me anymore.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2005, 06:20:35 PM »

LOL, glad no one is yelling at me anymore.

Shut up KEmp.  I strongly disapprove of you.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2005, 06:23:56 PM »

Yes, and it was an interesting argument, but it should have come up in a whole different court case, imo.

And it would have done if I had even half a chance of winning this one

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The justification of the Court's right to make a ruling compared with the reasons for ruling the way they did.

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Yes

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Criticism is never meaningless Grin

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Thanks Smiley
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The Dowager Mod
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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2005, 06:54:42 PM »

So i guess we need to wait for the court to tell us how to proceed with our jobs since it's not our decision anymore.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2005, 01:51:42 AM »

I apologize for not being more active.  I concur with the end result, but not the entirety of the reasoning. However, I don't feel like boring others or myself with the erudite pomposity that would have considered a third option, two-thirds of the number of Senate seats, only to conclude that there was no basis for a decision between two thirds of Senators and two-thirds of Senate seats.
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Peter
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2005, 07:55:22 AM »

Rant and rave all you like Al. It comes as no surprise to me that your idea of our jurisprudence should be simply what you want the Constitution to say as opposed to what it actaully says. An activist judge to you is one, quite simply, that you disagree with, not one who is actually an activist.

I am as certain as I can be that the decision rendered is one that best fits the Constitution, and my oath is to it, not to whatever you, the Senate or anybody else would like me to do. Nonetheless, I am quite happy to assist you in actually exercising one of the checks that exist on the judiciary - that of Constitutional Amendment.

If you wish to change the meaning of this clause to that which you thought it referred, I'll be quite happy to assist. In a courtroom however, I will always place my loyalty to the Constitution above all others.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2005, 08:17:44 AM »

It comes as no surprise to me that your idea of our jurisprudence should be simply what you want the Constitution to say as opposed to what it actaully says.

Not true at all. I was not going to make the argument I made until I re-read the part of the Constitution that deals with the powers of the Judicary; if you had intended to give the Supreme Court the powers with which it acts as though it has, you should have written it down.

I don't actually know why I even bothered trying to defend this case anyway. Could have spent the time wasted on that doing something worthwhile.

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Not true either.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2005, 08:30:53 AM »

Oh and I apologise for the insults (which have been removed). I was very ill last night and was just lashing out semi-randomly. Nothing personal was meant or directed at anyone.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2005, 11:51:39 AM »

Rant and rave all you like Al. It comes as no surprise to me that your idea of our jurisprudence should be simply what you want the Constitution to say as opposed to what it actaully says. An activist judge to you is one, quite simply, that you disagree with, not one who is actually an activist.
Please don't pretend that the term is used in a different sense by anybody else. Wink

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Sam Spade
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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2005, 11:59:46 PM »

I agree with the logic of this decision, though I find the constant references to foreign (US) law disturbing, Ms. O'Connor.
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