Keith Olbermann Smacks Down O'Reilly and Gibson

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The vatican likes to call people like myself '' Cafateria Catholics'' , accepting what we want to of catholicism and leaving all the rest.

Well, Jesus wasn't a fan of the Cafeteria plan:

Mat 28:19-20 "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

[GOP = Terrorists]

So you follow the bible word for word?  Including the OT?

[Speed of Sound]

Olbermann rules. I wish I had more chances to watch him, but Im usually on here or too sucked into videogames to watch.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

So you follow the bible word for word?  Including the OT?

Why would I follow the law of Moses when it was superseded by the New Covenant?  But I do believe the entire OT was inspired by God.

But me disregarding the rules of an obsolete covenant of God, which the bible itself claims is obsolete, is a tad bit different from disobeying the rules of God’s current covenant.

[Flying Dog]

The vatican likes to call people like myself '' Cafateria Catholics'' , accepting what we want to of catholicism and leaving all the rest.

Well, Jesus wasn't a fan of the Cafeteria plan:

Mat 28:19-20 "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Are you a catholic?

[GOP = Terrorists]

Why would I follow the law of Moses when it was superseded by the New Covenant?  But I do believe the entire OT was inspired by God.

I actually think that is quite valid.  Just a few questions if you don't mind

So do you attempt to follow the NT word for word?

When biblical accounts differ who do you believe?

How do you feel about Gnostic teachings?

How do you account for historical and linguistic alteration?

If you had never heard of Jesus Christ and his message to others would you follow another faith?

How do you feel about secular and Jewish historical attempts to understand Jesus?

What do you think is more important:  believing Jesus was divine or trying to follow his message?

Would Jesus have voted for George W Bush?  Why/Why not?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Are you a catholic?

No.  I go to an inter-denominational church.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I actually think that is quite valid.  Just a few questions if you don't mind

So do you attempt to follow the NT word for word?

Yes
--
When biblical accounts differ who do you believe?

Don’t know of any differing accounts, except for two separate accounts of a single battle in the old testament giving a very long list of items that were destroyed or captured.  On one item, one account says 500 (I think the item was captured chariots or something like that), the other account says 5000.  I think this “difference” is due to a scribe making an error while copying one of the accounts.
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How do you feel about Gnostic teachings?

I am not real familiar (I am ignorant) with extra-biblical terminology.  I don’t know the meaning of the term.
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How do you account for historical and linguistic alteration?

You’ll have to clarify what you mean.
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If you had never heard of Jesus Christ and his message to others would you follow another faith?

I became a Christian much like Paul did when he was knocked off his horse...it wasn’t by choice, I was called.  In 1992, I was dating a girl (who later became my wife).  She belonged to a Christian church (World Wide Church of God, founded by Herbert Armstrong) which was mixing a lot of the Laws of Moses (unclean foods, Jewish Holy Days) into Christianity.  After a couple of dates, she informed me she wasn’t supposed to be dating outside of her church.  So, I told her I would look into her beliefs.

I was raised a Christian (Catholic), but didn’t practice it, didn’t go to church, and knew only two verses of the bible, Gen 1:1 and John 3:16.  So, I could maybe be categorized a “Christian” for the purpose of a Census, but that is about as far as my Christianity went.

Luckily, I hadn’t been brain-washed enough by the Catholic Church to think I couldn’t interpret the bible myself without the help of the Vatican.  So, I thought, “All these denominations can’t all be right since they have differing beliefs.  I’ll just read the bible and see what it says and let the chips fall where they may, even if it means I can’t date my current girlfriend."

On my very first night of my “research” into the bible, I happened to begin at the book of Galatians.  Which just so happens to be addressed to a near carbon-copy of my girlfriend’s church.

After reading for about an hour, it was obvious that her church’s mixing of the Law of Moses was off-track. And God opened my eyes and I started thinking to myself, “What is the purpose of their deception?”  Then God allowed me to perceive the spiritual battle that was going on in her church’s deception – that there was a battle being waged over the possession of something of value – souls.  That there was a purpose to their deception, that demonic forces were deceiving them to keep them from being saved.

At that point, I got up from the table where I was studying and wept out of joy that I finally believed in Jesus (I guess you can say I believed in Jesus because God allowed me to perceive the forces deceiving my girlfriend’s church).  And I paced my floor of my apartment weeping out of joy that I finally believed.

At that moment I asked a myself a question, “Is this why [my girlfriend and the association with her church] had been brought into my life, so that I would believe?” (I actually used to subscribe to the free magazines her church published when I was a teenager, because I occasionally stumbled upon their broadcast on TV very late at night.  And it just so happened that when I was in college, I became friends with a guy whose dad was a deacon in that church.  And through that friend I became friends with many of the sons of the leadership of that church and they had become my circle of friends for several years and I hung around their families, including their parents, almost every weekend.  It was through them I met my girlfriend at a party and I felt an immediate spiritual attraction to her the first instant I laid eyes on her and I had never felt that before with anyone, much less the first moment of meeting someone.  This really perplexed me because I had always treated women worse than I had treated my cars, and I was hard on my cars.  I kept a close eye on her for a year because she was dating one of my close friends at the time and I was also dating someone.  After a year, neither one of us was dating anyone and I asked her out.  My study began a couple of weeks later.)

So, my question “Is this why [all these things] had been brought into my life, so that I would believe?” was very loaded and included events going back to when I was a teenager.  Immediately after I asked that I received the Holy Spirit and God spoke to me and said, “Yes, that is the reason why.  Now go and tell them the truth.”

Obviously, my revelation from God didn’t sit well with my girlfriend or her parents, or my friends in her church, or the parents of my friends who just happen to be part of the leadership of that church.  To put in mildly, it was as if God had dropped a bomb in my life and my “revelation” sent shockwaves through many families and turned mine upside down.  I had been a non-religious friend to several of the families of the leadership of a church, I had been a guest at their dinner tables dozens upon dozens of times...and now I was coming to them claiming that I, a non-religious person, had a message for them from God that they were deceived.

Through all of it, I saved my girlfriend (who later became my wife) and just of few friends out of that church.  But I also led my mother and step-father to Christ and my brothers still to this day frequently ask me questions about Jesus.

Since my wife’s old church was dabbling in the Law of Moses, I became a student of the Old Testament (OT) as well as the New Testament (NT).  That has helped me realize that the whole NT can be taught from the OT and every NT doctrine has an OT precedent.  This is how the Apostles were able to use the OT as the bible of the first generation of Christians.  That is how the people of Berea were able to use the OT to verify what Paul was teaching: “They examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” (Acts 17:11)

And since the whole NT can be taught from the OT, Paul commanded the churches “Do not go beyond what is written." (1Cor 4:6)

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How do you feel about secular and Jewish historical attempts to understand Jesus?
They’re simply trying to explain away the accounts of the NT so that they don’t have to deal with the reality of the NT’s message.

--

What do you think is more important:  believing Jesus was divine or trying to follow his message?
Faith and obedience are BOTH required for salvation.

--

Would Jesus have voted for George W Bush?  Why/Why not?

That is hypothetical since Jesus wasn’t allowed to vote.  Jesus was himself the center of attention.  He himself was the candidate, and the majority of the people of his day rejected him and voted to kill him.  But it was God’s purpose that Jesus be rejected by that generation.

God himself determines and picks the rulers of all the countries and sets the timeframe of their rule.  That doesn’t mean every ruler seeks justice or is a godly person, it just means that God is in control of the events of this world and the events are unfolding according to God’s plan.

So, I guess you could say that Jesus voted for all the winners of US elections, past, present, and future.

[Joe Republic]

God himself determines and picks the rulers of all the countries and sets the timeframe of their rule.  That doesn’t mean every ruler seeks justice or is a godly person, it just means that God is in control of the events of this world and the events are unfolding according to God’s plan.

What happened to free will?

[afleitch]

Immediately after I asked that I received the Holy Spirit and God spoke to me and said, “Yes, that is the reason why.  Now go and tell them the truth.”

...and now I was coming to them claiming I, a non-religious person, had a message for them from God that they were deceived.

How distubingly self-righteous . God speaks to and through many people whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox or whatever not just you. You have no right to judge others and claim that their faith and their beliefe was based on nothing but 'deception.' You have 'saved' no one. You are no prophet, no messenger of God even though you wish to elevate yourself to such a position.

EDIT- I am aware I broke my own promise to not reply to jmfcst ever again but this post almost made me spill my tea.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

What happened to free will?

In my opinion, I don't think it's totally one way or another.  I believe there is a mixture of free-will and divine intervention.

For instance, the bible says that God himself hardened Pharaoh’s heart.  And God told Pharaoh [paraphrased], “I raised you up for this very purpose of destroying you, so that my name may become famous throughout the world.”

That is why Paul could confidently and rhetorically proclaim, “If God is for us, who can be against us?!”

[Joe Republic]

They sure did have a lot of imagination back in those days, I'll give 'em that.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

How distubingly self-righteous . God speaks to and through many people whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox or whatever not just you. You have no right to judge others and claim that their faith and their beliefe was based on nothing but 'deception.' You have 'saved' no one. You are no prophet, no messenger of God even though you wish to elevate yourself to such a position.

I never claimed God talks to me alone.  

But you can't say one Christian doesn't have the right to correct another Christian, for there are dozens upon dozens of examples in the New Testament of that very thing.

After all, we ARE our bother's keeper!

2Thes 3:14-16  If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

I didn't treat my friends in that Church as "enemies", rather I warned them as brothers that they were not acting in accordance with the truth of the Gospel.

The only reason you hate the idea of one Christian correcting another is because you yourself feel ashamed of your refusal to obey the New Testament teachings.

[opebo]

The only reason you hate the idea of one Christian correcting another is because you yourself feel ashamed of your refusal to obey the New Testament teachings.

He should feel ashamed of lending any credence to your absurd cult of hate, jmfcst, not for his sex life.

[afleitch]

The only reason you hate the idea of one Christian correcting another is because you yourself feel ashamed of your refusal to obey the New Testament teachings.

He should feel ashamed of lending any credence to your absurd cult of hate, jmfcst, not for his sex life.

Thank you, but I am ashamed of neither my faith nor my sexuality.

[Joe Republic]

Even if you were ashamed of your sexuality, it's not like you can do anything about it.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Even if you were ashamed of your sexuality, it's not like you can do anything about it.

Really?  You don't believe Jesus Christ has the power to transform a life?  Then what is the meaning of the following?:

1Cor 6:9-12 Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


Doesn't "that is what some of you were" mean that they are no longer that way? 

Doesn't it mean that Christ can take the sexually immoral and change their behavior?  Doesn't it mean that Christ can take thieves and change their behavior?  Doesn't it mean that Christ can take drunkards and change their behavior?

...Doesn't it mean that Christ has the power to free people from sin?

"So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." (words of Jesus Christ, John 8:36)

[Joe Republic]

Uh... no.  Picking out yet another Bible quote proves nothing.

[opebo]

Even if you were ashamed of your sexuality, it's not like you can do anything about it.

Really?  You don't believe Jesus Christ has the power to transform a life? 

Um, jmfcst, Jesus, if he ever existed, is dead now, and therefore cannot 'transform' anything. 

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Uh... no.  Picking out yet another Bible quote proves nothing.

I am not saying it "proves" anything to unbelievers, for it is a message to believers. 

But, your comment to Afleitch that there is nothing he can do about his sexual orientation is NOT in agreement with the New Testament, for Christ stated he died to free us from our sins.

If Afleitch wants to listen to your unbelieving advice, which goes against the teachings of Jesus, then that is his choice.  But I'm simply pointing out he DOES have the option to do something about it.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Um, jmfcst, Jesus, if he ever existed, is dead now, and therefore cannot 'transform' anything. 

Joseph Smith is dead, yet you don’t see me fixated on him.  I don’t believe what he taught, so I don’t spend my time commenting on him.

Mohammad is dead, yet you don’t see me fascinated him or with the followers of Islam, even though my country is in war a with radical Muslims.

…So, if Jesus Christ is dead, why are you so fascinated with him?  What is it that he has that you so desperately want?

[opebo]

…So, if Jesus Christ is dead, why are you so fascinated with him?  What is it that he has that you so desperately want?

You poor sap, I was responding to your post.   That fictional character only comes up in conversation so much because the world is ruled by your ilk, and unfortunately we reasonable people have to deal with you.

[Joe Republic]

Uh... no.  Picking out yet another Bible quote proves nothing.

I am not saying it "proves" anything to unbelievers, for it is a message to believers. 

But, your comment to Afleitch that there is nothing he can do about his sexual orientation is NOT in agreement with the New Testament, for Christ stated he died to free us from our sins.

If Afleitch wants to listen to your unbelieving advice, which goes against the teachings of Jesus, then that is his choice.  But I'm simply pointing out he DOES have the option to do something about it.

Who cares if it doesn't agree with what some dusty old book says?  The fact is, being gay is not a conscious choice, and therefore there is nothing anybody can do about it even if they wanted to.  I would rather take the word of people who are actually gay and are alive, than that of some guy who lived two thousand years ago and has had most of his life history fabricated since then.

Plus, your implication that Afleitch would want to do anything about it anyway speaks volumes.  Don't you care that he has a loving partner and is happy with his life?

(I'm making some assumptions there, afleitch, so correct me if I'm off the mark.)

[The Dowager Mod]

And another interesting thread gets ruined.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The fact is, being gay is not a conscious choice, and therefore there is nothing anybody can do about it even if they wanted to.

Neither did I choose to be have greed, nor did I choose to want to have sex with women other than my wife...I was simply born with a sinful nature.

BUT there is something I can do about it:  I can simply choose to give my life to Christ and allow him to change my nature so that I will NOT obey the desires of my flesh.

So we are NOT talking about desires, rather we are talking about actions.

---

I would rather take the word of people who are actually gay

Again, the origin of their desires is not the issue.  I fully accept that their desires are part of their nature, just as greed and adultery are part of my human nature.

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Plus, your implication that Afleitch would want to do anything about it anyway speaks volumes.

 

Well, that’s the problem, is it not?  He refuses to repent.  And in that regard, both he and you have something in common:

“This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.”  (Jesus Christ, John 3:19-20)

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Don't you care that he has a loving partner and is happy with his life?

And I am sure there are brothers and sisters practicing incest that love each other and are very happy in their sin.

But that doesn’t make it right.

So I guess you could say I am more concerned with their eternal happiness than with their enjoyment of sin for a short season.