Abolition of Forum Affairs Department Bill
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 03:20:54 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  Atlas Fantasy Elections
  Atlas Fantasy Government (Moderators: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee, Lumine)
  Abolition of Forum Affairs Department Bill
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
Author Topic: Abolition of Forum Affairs Department Bill  (Read 6340 times)
Joe Republic
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 40,042
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2006, 12:05:48 PM »

This amendment wouldn't help that, they could still not do their job and nothing would happen. This is really nothing but making the government bigger, sorry but I can't support this.

On the contrary, whereas you would have the risk of one ineffective person in charge of two core duties, this would reduce that risk to a level where that person would only be responsible for one duty.  I realize that that is hardly reassuring, but it's all a matter of ensuring that both important tasks are not left to somebody who cannot deal with either.

I understand the concern about enlarging the government when it concerns spending public money, or encroaching on the rights of the common person.  But how does this simple act of forum affairs reform do either of those things?
Logged
Joe Republic
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 40,042
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2006, 12:06:20 PM »

I got an idea, why don't we make the DSoFA the in charge of the Census Bureau, and the SoFA keep up with the Federal elections.  It would accomplish the same goal (making the SoFA's job easier) but not make in extra positions.

With respect, that proposal is almost exactly the same as this one.
Logged
CheeseWhiz
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,538


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2006, 12:18:01 PM »

I got an idea, why don't we make the DSoFA the in charge of the Census Bureau, and the SoFA keep up with the Federal elections.  It would accomplish the same goal (making the SoFA's job easier) but not make in extra positions.

With respect, that proposal is almost exactly the same as this one.

Exactly my point, except we don't need to change the constitution.  Instead, we just unofficially assign the duties to the SoFA and DSoFA.
Logged
minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,207
India


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2006, 12:20:50 PM »

I got an idea, why don't we make the DSoFA the in charge of the Census Bureau, and the SoFA keep up with the Federal elections.  It would accomplish the same goal (making the SoFA's job easier) but not make in extra positions.

With respect, that proposal is almost exactly the same as this one.

Exactly my point, except we don't need to change the constitution.  Instead, we just unofficially assign the duties to the SoFA and DSoFA.
I think that's the better idea. Really, what dumbfück had the idea of mentioning the departments in the Constitution at all?
Logged
Joe Republic
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 40,042
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2006, 12:23:08 PM »

Exactly my point, except we don't need to change the constitution.  Instead, we just unofficially assign the duties to the SoFA and DSoFA.

According to Peter, we may not need to change the Constitution.  I'd like to hear more from him about that, because I'm not really sure about the logistics as yet.

I really don't see how assigning separate duties to the SoFA and DSofa is any different from splitting up the DoFA into two new departments anyway.
Logged
CheeseWhiz
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,538


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2006, 12:31:00 PM »

Joe, that is exactly why I support this bill, because it wouldn’t be any different than having the SoFA and DSoFA, except that they’d have to different tasks.  The one thing that would be better for us is that we wouldn’t have to go through the hassle of a Constitutional Amendment (but, like you said, Peter said something about not having to do that anyway,) or a bunch of Senators who don’t exactly seem to understand that we aren’t creating anymore jobs (no offense guys,) or have to rewrite any previous legislation (such as the Line of Succession Act.)  I still support this, I’m just wondering if this wouldn’t be an easier way.
Logged
Joe Republic
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 40,042
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2006, 12:41:57 PM »

Ah, I didn't realize we were actually on more-or-less the same page. Wink
Logged
The Duke
JohnD.Ford
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,270


Political Matrix
E: 0.13, S: -1.23

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2006, 01:15:52 PM »

However, what if we are faced with another Ilikeverin in the role of SoFA?

Impeachment, I presume.
Logged
CheeseWhiz
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,538


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2006, 01:18:59 PM »

However, what if we are faced with another Ilikeverin in the role of SoFA?

Impeachment, I presume.

1: Angry
2: Sure, you can just impeach him in the middle of the election, which is the only time you're gonna find out that he's incompetent (which, btw, ilikeverin was not,) and we'd be in chaos trying to appoint a new one.  I really don't see how that's gonna work.
Logged
Peter
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,030


Political Matrix
E: -0.77, S: -7.48

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2006, 01:27:41 PM »

The constitutional point is this:

When I sat down and drafted our Second Constitution, I had the task of not only constructing a sensible government structure, but keeping it in continuity with what we already had.

Specifically this was the First Constitution that had in its provisions established the 5 Executive Departments (State, Defense, Forum Affairs, Justice, Labor) and bunked them into  a line of succession. Other than that constitutional provision, there was no actual reason to suggest that the Executive Departments existed.

Thus, the Second Constitution had to take account of this by ensuring the continuation of these five executive depts. Had I failed to mention their existence in the Second Constitution, the departments would have ceased to exist, and you would have to have sat down and written legislation to re-establish them. I saw that as unnecessary, but I also wanted to avoid the problem of a rigid cabinet structure that we had had set for us under the First Constitution.

Thus, I arrived at the comprimise we have before us: I put all the stuff that I knew we needed to ensure continuity of government but that I thought should be amendable by simple legislation into Article VIII, Section 2, and then finished it off with clause 5:

The Senate shall have appropriate power via legislation to repeal or amend anything in this Section.

Thus the Senate has power to essentially tear up Article VIII, Section 2 any time it pleases and replace it with a new cabinet structure as you have proposed here. It does not require an Amendment process, because that is exactly what I intended, and what the plain text bears out.

It is not dissimilar to provisions of the US Constitution, e.g. Amendment XX, Section 2 reads:

The Congress shall assemble at least once in every year, and such meeting shall begin at noon on the 3d day of January, unless they shall by law appoint a different day.

In other words, the Amendment sets a transitional provision up, but allows for the Senate to change it by Law if they feel that thats what they want to do.
Logged
Colin
ColinW
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,684
Papua New Guinea


Political Matrix
E: 3.87, S: -6.09

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2006, 01:47:39 PM »

I personally agree with CheeseWhiz. This entire thing can be done without an amendment. We can just designate new power to the DSoFA. We can actually pass a statute or a resolution through the Senate which would give them the specific powers that you have stated earlier. The DSoFA could handle the census, regional elections, registration updates, etc. and the SoFA can handle federal elections, voter registration, and electoral challenges. We do not need an entire reworking of the department. All we need is to transfer some of the current SoFA jobs to the DSoFA who are often competent individuals in themselves. This in my opinion is unneeded and would be better off as a bill stating the powers and duties of the SoFA and DSoFA respectivly. I believe this is why we passed the Deputy SoFA Creation Act so that a great deal of the SoFA's workload could be passed off to another person. This does nothing more than rename the two positions and gives more hassle to both this Senate and the people of Atlasia than is actually necessary.
Logged
CheeseWhiz
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,538


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2006, 02:03:55 PM »

Colin, I am in agreement with your post, except that the DSoFA shouldn't have a say in Regional election.
Logged
MasterJedi
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 23,550
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2006, 04:18:32 PM »

I can go with what CheeseWhiz has proposed but one problem, our DSoFA is gone. (Yates)
Logged
Joe Republic
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 40,042
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2006, 04:32:50 PM »

The Senate shall have appropriate power via legislation to repeal or amend anything in this Section.

Thus the Senate has power to essentially tear up Article VIII, Section 2 any time it pleases and replace it with a new cabinet structure as you have proposed here. It does not require an Amendment process, because that is exactly what I intended, and what the plain text bears out.

It is not dissimilar to provisions of the US Constitution, e.g. Amendment XX, Section 2 reads:

The Congress shall assemble at least once in every year, and such meeting shall begin at noon on the 3d day of January, unless they shall by law appoint a different day.

In other words, the Amendment sets a transitional provision up, but allows for the Senate to change it by Law if they feel that thats what they want to do.

Ah, thank you for clarifying that, Peter.  In which case, I'll ask if a senator could kindly move to amend the title of this amendment to 'Abolition of Forum Affairs Department Bill', which hopefully will change the procedural functions therein.

I'll work on some subsequent amendments that address some other concerns that have been raised, which can be dealt with separately.
Logged
MasterJedi
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 23,550
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2006, 09:42:30 AM »

Anybody know how to write CheeseWhiz's idea into an amendment? I'd support his idea but not Joe's.
Logged
Joe Republic
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 40,042
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2006, 01:17:19 PM »

How is it any different?!?

And could a senator please introduce the amendment I mentioned in my last post?  Please?!
Logged
Sam Spade
SamSpade
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 27,547


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2006, 02:45:28 PM »

However, what if we are faced with another Ilikeverin in the role of SoFA?

Impeachment, I presume.

John Ford for President!
Logged
Joe Republic
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 40,042
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2006, 02:48:36 PM »

However, what if we are faced with another Ilikeverin in the role of SoFA?

Impeachment, I presume.

Look what happened the last time that was tried.
Logged
CheeseWhiz
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,538


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2006, 03:32:28 PM »

could a senator please introduce the amendment I mentioned in my last post?  Please?!

I think Ebowed already changed it without any amendment, just look at the title of the thread.
Logged
Joe Republic
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 40,042
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2006, 03:37:28 PM »

could a senator please introduce the amendment I mentioned in my last post?  Please?!

I think Ebowed already changed it without any amendment, just look at the title of the thread.

Well look at that.  Thanks, Ebowed! Smiley
Logged
MasterJedi
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 23,550
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2006, 03:44:30 PM »

could a senator please introduce the amendment I mentioned in my last post?  Please?!

I think Ebowed already changed it without any amendment, just look at the title of the thread.

Well look at that.  Thanks, Ebowed! Smiley

I told him about it and he did it. No need for an amendment to change the title when it's obviously wrong. Smiley
Logged
MasterJedi
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 23,550
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2006, 05:21:39 PM »

I have an amendment:

4. Section 1 shall not take effect until the start of the next Presidential term.
Logged
Ebowed
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,597


Political Matrix
E: 4.13, S: 2.09

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2006, 12:09:27 AM »

I have an amendment:

4. Section 1 shall not take effect until the start of the next Presidential term.

The vote is on the above amendment.  Senators may vote Yea, Nay, or Abstain.
Logged
MasterJedi
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 23,550
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2006, 07:01:38 AM »

Aye


That amendment is so nothing happens now that screws things up if this passes. It makes it so the position is split up when the President can pick two people to do the job.
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,609
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2006, 07:03:03 AM »

Aye
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.052 seconds with 11 queries.