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Author Topic: The Right to Marry: Justice, at Last  (Read 20341 times)
migrendel
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« Reply #100 on: May 19, 2004, 03:38:13 pm »
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How much that statement resembles the sixth commandment. But much like the sixth commandment, it is an oversimplification not in keeping with the complexity of modern life and changes in the concept of morality.
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« Reply #101 on: May 19, 2004, 03:46:24 pm »
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How much that statement resembles the sixth commandment. But much like the sixth commandment, it is an oversimplification not in keeping with the complexity of modern life and changes in the concept of morality.

So are you now saying that murder is permissible? I do not deny that killing another human being can be necessary, but only in extraordinary circumstances… as a rule I think that it is very fair to say that a human being would be in grave error to deprive another human being of life and that includes cases where it is a case of a mother wanting outside of the trimester to kill her child. Sorry funny old notion “that”.. ya know that people shouldn’t kill one another, every human being is endowed with inalienable rights and amougst them is the right to live.

Now if you want a discussion on morality well lets break out the Neitchzer, and then Plato’s theory of the forms and for good measure the bible….I’ll have to sharpen up but if you really want a dissuasion of moral relativism then sure go ahead. That said I doubt it would get us anywhere…          
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Brambila
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« Reply #102 on: May 19, 2004, 03:52:23 pm »
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Because a woman has a choice, aflteich. It is not my duty to pry into her reasoning. But in principle, I have to make my position, even if it means that I run the risk of never having been born.

I don't see the logic in this "choice" argument, at all. Yes, the mother has a choice- good for her. But nobody has unlimited choices. I have a choice to rape a woman or not to- am I going to do it? Clearly not. I have a choice to murder my brother- can I do it? No. I have a choice to kill my dog because I don't want it anymore. Can I do it? No. Clearly, the woman does have a choice, but that doesn't justify anything.

But clearly, you don't have any respect towards humanity in infancy. You believe that premature infants can still be legally killed. Do you think abortions should be allowed if the child is born late, and after 9 months?
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« Reply #103 on: May 19, 2004, 03:55:26 pm »
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What is wrong with States asking this question?

I don't think he does - but I certainly believe that homosexuality occurs naturally... thus there must be something in the genes that causes or encourages it.  So it is possible that 10 or 20 years down the road there could be a sexuality test that could be performed on the fetus.

Since, in Migrendel's world, its all about the "choice" of the mother, it doesn't matter what the doctors think or how stupid the reasoning is.  There will be pre-born babies murdered for being homosexual.  Thanks liberals!

Even from you, StatesRights, I cannot believe such a question.

The Medical profession does not, in this day and age, reccomend abortion for any defect of the child, real or imagined.
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« Reply #104 on: May 19, 2004, 04:22:08 pm »
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Well if some bigot decides to have an abortion because her kid will be gay, it's better than her having it and then probably abusing the kid.

Of course, they'd be hypocrites for having abortions anyway.
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« Reply #105 on: May 19, 2004, 05:28:10 pm »
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A child should definately not be aborted for being gay, that's disgraceful. Abortion should be outlawed except for serious medical reasons or rape.
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nclib
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« Reply #106 on: May 19, 2004, 06:07:55 pm »
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Here is the prblem with gay marriage.  But declaring that marraige is to be between any two people who love each other, and that the primary purpose of marriage is to give state sanction to love, we break the traditional link between marriage and child-rearing.  By seperating the two, we make out-of-wedlock childbirth more acceptable, we make divorce in marriages taht have children more acceptable, and we will therefore increase the rate of single parents in America.  This is not wild specualtion either, there is empirical evidence from Scandanavia of this very phenomenon.

What people need to realize is that it isn't always just about letting people be "happy" or "free", or about us being "accepting" or "tolerant".  Part of what needs to be considered is the actual societal impact of changing the nation's laws.  The law signifies what is and isn't accepted by society, and by changing the law, we change social norms.  Changing this particular social norm would be very harmful.

Legalizing gay marriage may change social norms in a positive way--it could emphasize the egalitarian aspect of marriage.
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Josh/Devilman88
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« Reply #107 on: May 19, 2004, 06:16:06 pm »
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Here is the prblem with gay marriage.  But declaring that marraige is to be between any two people who love each other, and that the primary purpose of marriage is to give state sanction to love, we break the traditional link between marriage and child-rearing.  By seperating the two, we make out-of-wedlock childbirth more acceptable, we make divorce in marriages taht have children more acceptable, and we will therefore increase the rate of single parents in America.  This is not wild specualtion either, there is empirical evidence from Scandanavia of this very phenomenon.

What people need to realize is that it isn't always just about letting people be "happy" or "free", or about us being "accepting" or "tolerant".  Part of what needs to be considered is the actual societal impact of changing the nation's laws.  The law signifies what is and isn't accepted by society, and by changing the law, we change social norms.  Changing this particular social norm would be very harmful.

Legalizing gay marriage may change social norms in a positive way--it could emphasize the egalitarian aspect of marriage.

Hmm how? Ones we have gay marriages then we have 3 people in one marriage. Then before you know it people would just forget marriage!
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nclib
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« Reply #108 on: May 19, 2004, 06:29:31 pm »
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What is wrong with States asking this question?

I don't think he does - but I certainly believe that homosexuality occurs naturally... thus there must be something in the genes that causes or encourages it.  So it is possible that 10 or 20 years down the road there could be a sexuality test that could be performed on the fetus.

Since, in Migrendel's world, its all about the "choice" of the mother, it doesn't matter what the doctors think or how stupid the reasoning is.  There will be pre-born babies murdered for being homosexual.  Thanks liberals!

Even from you, StatesRights, I cannot believe such a question.

The Medical profession does not, in this day and age, reccomend abortion for any defect of the child, real or imagined.

I agree that it's possible that someday the sexual orientation of a fetus could be known...

It would certainly be terrible to abort a fetus in this situation. However, there wouldn't be a point of having laws against that (as long as abortion is legal)--a woman could lie and say she wanted an abortion for some other reason.

This concept would also apply to the idea of aborting a fetus not of the desired sex.
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[George W. Bush] has shattered the myth of white supremacy once and for all. -- Congressman Charles Rangel (D-NY)

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nclib
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« Reply #109 on: May 19, 2004, 06:30:17 pm »
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I'd wonder what a pro-life homophobic woman would do in that hypothetical situation...
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[George W. Bush] has shattered the myth of white supremacy once and for all. -- Congressman Charles Rangel (D-NY)

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nclib
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« Reply #110 on: May 19, 2004, 06:34:47 pm »
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Here is the prblem with gay marriage.  But declaring that marraige is to be between any two people who love each other, and that the primary purpose of marriage is to give state sanction to love, we break the traditional link between marriage and child-rearing.  By seperating the two, we make out-of-wedlock childbirth more acceptable, we make divorce in marriages taht have children more acceptable, and we will therefore increase the rate of single parents in America.  This is not wild specualtion either, there is empirical evidence from Scandanavia of this very phenomenon.

What people need to realize is that it isn't always just about letting people be "happy" or "free", or about us being "accepting" or "tolerant".  Part of what needs to be considered is the actual societal impact of changing the nation's laws.  The law signifies what is and isn't accepted by society, and by changing the law, we change social norms.  Changing this particular social norm would be very harmful.

Legalizing gay marriage may change social norms in a positive way--it could emphasize the egalitarian aspect of marriage.

Hmm how? Ones we have gay marriages then we have 3 people in one marriage. Then before you know it people would just forget marriage!

Polygamy does not advance women's rights--most cultures that condone it are pretty misogynistic. Gay couples are certainly more egalitarian than straight couples--studies have shown that wives adapt more than husbands do, even in couples that claim to have egalitarian values.
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[George W. Bush] has shattered the myth of white supremacy once and for all. -- Congressman Charles Rangel (D-NY)

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Josh/Devilman88
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« Reply #111 on: May 19, 2004, 07:01:10 pm »
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So are you saying that women sould rule the house? or both man and women should rule the house?
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nclib
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« Reply #112 on: May 19, 2004, 08:10:46 pm »
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The second one. Sorry if that was unclear.
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« Reply #113 on: May 19, 2004, 09:46:46 pm »
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The second one. Sorry if that was unclear.
Yea me too.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #114 on: May 20, 2004, 01:10:31 am »
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Even from you, StatesRights, I cannot believe such a question.

The Medical profession does not, in this day and age, reccomend abortion for any defect of the child, real or imagined.

Wrong. When my wife was pregnant we had a AFP test run and they said their was a higher risk then average of our baby being born with Downs Syndrome. Abortion was recommended as one option and I almost hit the doctor.  Thank God everything is ok and I have a perfectly healthy daughter.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #115 on: May 20, 2004, 01:11:18 am »
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That is SICK! Homosexual is not something that 'ruins the quality of life' of any individual, why would a mother choose to abort it!!! Besides...they cant test for that yet and by saying that it is a possibility means you now accept that homosexuals are simply born that way. Well done.

I never said it was a genetic or from birth. It's one possibility but I don't really buy it.
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« Reply #116 on: May 20, 2004, 04:01:23 am »
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That is SICK! Homosexual is not something that 'ruins the quality of life' of any individual, why would a mother choose to abort it!!! Besides...they cant test for that yet and by saying that it is a possibility means you now accept that homosexuals are simply born that way. Well done.



I never said it was a genetic or from birth. It's one possibility but I don't really buy it.

When you think about it by and large it’s a choice shaped by psychological factors that said you’re probably genetically predisposed to it. But look through history and the evidence that it is nurture is very strong in Sparta Homosexuality amongst men was the norm and the vast majority of men where Homosexual. In the Renaissance sexuality (meaning at the time any sexual activity that was not engaged in for the procreation of children) be it gay or straight neither was seen as much different from the other. The simple fact is that its Mostly a choice be it at a subconscious level but it is probably influenced by your genetic predispositions.    
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« Reply #117 on: May 20, 2004, 05:15:02 am »
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It is a fact that sexuality is not black and white, not in humans or anyother species. They are various shades of grey. 80% of sexuality is genetic, the rest is due to environment. This is why occassionally people will experiment and indeed in many Arab countries this is common place as a way of getting experience. Islam forbids sex outside of marriage.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #118 on: May 20, 2004, 11:49:22 am »
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How do you seperate the men from boys in Greece?









With a crowbar!! Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #119 on: May 20, 2004, 04:05:58 pm »
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How do you seperate the men from boys in Greece?

With a crowbar!! Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Not just Greece - the Muslim lands are rife with homosexuality.  Stands to reason - anywhere women are not available sexually, like in prison, there will be situational homosexuality.
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« Reply #120 on: May 21, 2004, 04:21:27 am »
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I'm not sure homosexuality is anymore common in Arab nations or Greece for that matter, however homosexual sex is. Most men in places like Morocco & Egypt do not get married until their 30's, therefore it is the only way of gaining experience and/or relieving urges. I'm sure most of these men are not entirely straight however.
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« Reply #121 on: May 21, 2004, 05:13:47 pm »
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I'm not sure homosexuality is anymore common in Arab nations or Greece for that matter, however homosexual sex is. Most men in places like Morocco & Egypt do not get married until their 30's, therefore it is the only way of gaining experience and/or relieving urges. I'm sure most of these men are not entirely straight however.


Precisely!  Life in Muslim countries is precisely comparable to life in a Western prison.
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Nym90
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« Reply #122 on: May 21, 2004, 09:54:57 pm »
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HockeyDude--

Please email me at enyman90@yahoo.com. Thanks.
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