Kaliningrad
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Author Topic: Kaliningrad  (Read 1413 times)
True Democrat
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« on: January 17, 2006, 05:54:11 PM »

What's with this place?  I never understood why it didn't become part of Lithuania or Poland or something.  Does anyone know?
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The Dowager Mod
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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2006, 05:55:22 PM »

It was east prussia historicaly part of germany
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2006, 06:09:40 PM »

After the Allies redrew Poland's borders after WWII, the German city of Konigsberg was separated from the rest of Germany.  Because the separation of Prussia from its motherland was one of the reasons why Nazi Germany had invaded Poland before, it was felt that it would be easier to take Konigsberg away from Germany completely.  At Potsdam, the Allies agreed to give the city to the USSR, who changed its name to Kaliningrad.
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True Democrat
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2006, 06:13:55 PM »

But why did it remain part of Russia after the USSR split up?
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2006, 06:18:46 PM »

No one sane wants it
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J. J.
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2006, 06:21:31 PM »

The ethnic German population was expelled and replaced by Russian nationals.

Ironically, there was a fairly large German minority in what is now the Czech Republic and Poland prior to WWII.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2006, 06:34:29 PM »

But why did it remain part of Russia after the USSR split up?

What J.J. said.

Also, the province was put under direct control of Moscow, whereas the other countries within the USSR were granted very limited autonomy.  When the USSR split up and the other countries gained independence, it was just felt that K'grad couldn't really sustain itself.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2006, 02:03:16 AM »


lol Good one Al.
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Cubby
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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2006, 03:34:45 AM »

But why did it remain part of Russia after the USSR split up?

Because it gives Russia an ice-free port thousands of miles closer to most of its population than Vladivostok.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2006, 08:00:49 AM »

Well, in 1991 it was given to Russia because it had been part of Russia before 1991 - no borders were redrawn that year, it was as if the US were dissolved and 50 new independent countries arose - including the fact that most of these borders had been drawn by central bureaucrats with a largescale disregard for history, demographics or economics, and were never meant to be borders of independent countries.

As to why it belonged to Russia from 45 to 91 ... I'm not sure. I'd have given it to Lithuania if I was Stalin. That would have nicely (Macchiavelli talking here) increased ethnic Russian influence in Lithuania, too.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2006, 08:03:25 AM »

As to why it belonged to Russia from 45 to 91 ... I'm not sure. I'd have given it to Lithuania if I was Stalin. That would have nicely (Macchiavelli talking here) increased ethnic Russian influence in Lithuania, too.

Yeah... bearing in mind the sort of stuff he got up to with boundaries in Central Asia [shudders] it's suprising that he didn't do that...

Is it hard to get out of by any chance? Can't think of a good reason why anyone would actually want to live there...
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2006, 08:08:11 AM »

As to why it belonged to Russia from 45 to 91 ... I'm not sure. I'd have given it to Lithuania if I was Stalin. That would have nicely (Macchiavelli talking here) increased ethnic Russian influence in Lithuania, too.

Yeah... bearing in mind the sort of stuff he got up to with boundaries in Central Asia [shudders] it's suprising that he didn't do that...

Is it hard to get out of by any chance? Can't think of a good reason why anyone would actually want to live there...
Why not? It's close to the West.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2006, 09:57:46 AM »


Yes, but it's a complete sh*thole. Wouldn't the fact that it's close to the West be an incentive to leave though? Maybe I just don't understand Russians...
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J-Mann
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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2006, 10:59:50 AM »

But why did it remain part of Russia after the USSR split up?

Because it gives Russia an ice-free port thousands of miles closer to most of its population than Vladivostok.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I would have said it, but it's already been said Smiley
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KillerPollo
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« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2006, 11:30:13 AM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad

see that!

VERY INTERESTING.
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ag
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« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2006, 11:56:03 AM »

In 1945 Eastern Prussia was divided between Poland (southern part) and USSR (northern part, including the capital), and the Soviet part was incorporated into RSFSR (i.e., Russia). The old German population was expelled, the Russian and other Soviet population moved from the hinterlands. Since the bulk imported population was Russian, it was incorporated into Russia (it also provided for a buffer between the restive Lithuania and Poland - recall that a guerilla war in Lithuania continued unabated till 1953).  As they said here, administrative borders of the USSR, though not undisputed, became, by and large, the national borders in 1991.

The capital was renamed Kaliningrad (in honor of then "Soviet President" Kalinin - a pitiful puppet, but, possibly, a somewhat decent man - who died in 1946). Other cities were also renamed (e.g., Tilsit became Sovetsk). After the Soviet fall they didn't even know how to rename them (Konigsburg is out of question of course). Among the proposals they had Kantograd (in honor of the famous native) or even Baltimor (roughly translating as "Baltic Sea" from Russian). Funnily, the eponimous Moscow suburb of Kaliningrad has been renamed Korolev, in honor of the father of Soviet space program. The funny part is, that Korolev could be a literal Russian translation of Konigsburg! In the end, they kept the name, which sounds very generic in Russian.

Making it a part of Lithuania would not do much to dilute the Lithuanian majority there: at the last Soviet census in 1989 ethnic Lithuanians were 76% of the Republic's population, with over 10% being Poles, who always lived around Vilnius/Vilno, and only some 10% Russian. Adding Kaliningrad might have made it 20%, but no more - nothing comparable to Latvia, where Russians were over 40% of the population at independence. In fact, in the Baltics Stalin's games with borders didn't try to dilute the local population, but rather increase Russia proper: late 1940s is the period he was shifting to hardcore Russian chauvinism as a matter of ideology. Thus Latvia and Estonia actually lost Russian-populated territories they controlled before the war (Abrene/Pytalovo district was transferred to Russia from Latvia, while Estonia lost Ivangorod and Pechory). Not having a common border with Russia proper, Lithuania actually gained from Poland its own capital Vilnius/Vilno (which had been assigned to Lithuania after WWI, but captured by Poland militarily), but a number of Polish-controlled territories that before the war were claimed by Lithuania were assigned to Belorussia, not to Lithuania.

Lithuanian nationalists, actually, always wanted Kaliningrad (they translate Konigsburg as Karolavicius - I might be butchering Lithuanian spelling here), on the grounds that Old Prussians (before they were germanized and lost their language, which died out some time before the late 17th century) spoke a Baltic language related to Lithuanian and Lettish and that the region always had a Lithuanian minority. This is all pretty much insignificant now, though.

At present Kaliningrad is somewhat isolated. One can fly there from Russia, of course, but  that is too expensive for most Russians. A cheaper train ride (non-stop in Lithuania) requires a passport and a "simplified" Lithuanian transit visa (which most people can get via the rail company, but Lithuania reserves the right not to issue it to the "undesirables"). There is not much use for the port, since one first has to get there from Russia proper - most Russian maritimie trade in the Baltic goes through the Latvian ports these days (Ventspils and Liepaia - god, I must be really butchering the spellings). Russia has started building a port of its own just east of the Estonian border in Ust'-Luga (it will be mostly ice-free, at least compared with St. Petersburg).

Leaving it permanently, as someone suggested here, does not make much sense for most residents - it might not be the liveliest province of Russia, but neither it is the most depressed (much of the Russian hinterland is a lot worse). Kaliningrad has a somewhat liberal trade and tax regime, there is some nostalgic tourism from Germany, there is a port and there are military bases - it's not really a hellhole, though it wouldn't be my choice of where to live.  Within Russia it would only make sense to move to places like Moscow or St. Petersburg, in which it is difficult to get local residence permits. Migrating outside of Russia is obviously not easy (visas, work permits, language, etc. - for one, most locals don't speak any language other than Russian).
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