Lack of Trade Unions in the USA

[Huckleberry Finn]

I found this interesting article about blue-collar salaries in the USA.

A quote from it:

“Unionized workers in blue-collar occupations averaged $18.88 per hour, compared with $12.95 for nonunion blue-collar workers.”

http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/jobsemployment/a/unionwages.htm

First: I admit that I know very little about the labour issue in the United States. That’s why I wanted to raise a discussion about it in our fine forum. What I know about USA situation is that many low income workers have to work at two or even three jobs. Right? If you have to get two jobs, your wage is not obviously enough for living.

On the other hand, I can find few explanations about the salary difference between nonunion workers and unionized workers.

1) Most of the union workers live in fairly rich states.
2) Union workers work in businesses where productivity is  quite high.

But after all most important issue is: I believe that unions can ensure better wages than individual employee alone.

Again. I know very little how these things goes in the USA, but I know how they goes in Finland. Here blue collar employee works 8 hours in day and get decent salary. (enough for good living) There is no need for two jobs. And why? Simple answer: because of trade unions.

How about our competitiveness? Is best in the world:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3225223.stm
 
Of course we have similar problems as other  industrialized  countries. Jobs are going to overseas. And that is why I agree with conservative Finnish  politicians who claim that there is need to decrease regulation of the labour market. Yes a little bit, but I still believe that trade unions have positive effect to society.

My perspective on union issue might sounds leftist from American perspective. And I know that there is long history of corrupt unions in the USA. In my county there is different story. After WWII moderate social democrat trade unions played remarkable role in the fight against commies. And in Finland most white collar trade unions are ruled by conservatives! (most white collars in Finland are member of unions)

Trade unions aren’t socialism. They are part of the market economy.

[WMS]

I somewhat agree...I think the American trade unions basically did some really dumb things and hurt themselves a lot. I've heard stories about how General Electric workers, in the early 1970's, were making $25/hour!!! and still tried to get raises every single time they negotiated, regardless of market conditions or company finances. That came back against them later, I think. They also failed to reach out to the service sector for far too long in part because of racism on the part of the Irish and Italians who ran the AFL-CIO, and as the service sector is much bigger than manufacturing, unions got shut out for a long time. Their association with the Democratic Party hasn't won them any points with business either. I support the right of labor to organize (as the WSJ once put it, if capital can be combined, why not labor?), although I think the government needs to get out of it altogether (last Labor Day I read a very interesting piece that said that labor unions are hurt more than helped by government laws - and government actions, as any student of the Gilded Age can attest) or at least only moderate disputes. Finally, 10 years or more back, George Will wrote a column which mentioned a case of a company union which bought a chunk of company stock and gained significant representation on the Board of Directors...it appeared to work quite well for both sides, and could be a way for American unions to gain influence.

[bullmoose88]

Indeed.

Labor unions are necessary...provided they aren't corrupt.

[NewFreedom]

From the german side:
Our trade-unions are heading to some serious trouble, basically because of the problems you mentioned the American ones had: pushing up wages, whatever the cost. But mainly, they fight very hard to protect people from being fired...  up to a point where companies can't dare hiring today, becaus they don't know if they can  afford this one more worker after finishing the project they are working on right now.
In some areas, wages CANNOT be lowered,  but in some they can, and still trade unions refuse to show at least some felxibility.
And I'd rather work for 2 different companies within one year than not work at all.

Of course, we have problems from gouvernment side, too: if you get 1000€, the company actually PAYS around 2000€, and while this money goes into health-care and such, too, it is on the whole more than is healthy for economy.

So, just to put in another country .

[RomneyGekko Situation Hairgel]

Indeed.

Labor unions are necessary...provided they aren't corrupt.

Wow moose, you're batting 1.000 with me on posts I agree with!  Not too often I see that out of Republicans here.  I agree that the Philly ones are definitely corrupt, but they also get a lot of undue negative press.  It's funny, I'm from Northeast Philly with an almost even mix of Dems and Repubs.  Most of us have a favorable opinion of unions, most of us are for fair trade, a good number oppose the invasion of Iraq, we basically all DESPISE Mayor John Street! (Yes, I am a Katz Democrat... shh).  The main dividing issue here is abortion.  Those that care less are Dems and those that go to Mass and subscribe to the Catholic Standard and Times are Republican.  I also notice a lot of Philly cops are Repubs as well.  Where in PA?      

[English]

I'm divided on this. I used to be in favour of unions until the firefighters strike in the UK in 2002/03. The union led by a left-wing extremist called Andy Gilchrist was demanding a 40% pay rise!!!!! This was totally unreasonable in my opinion, and the strike action just put lives in peril. My view of unions took a real dive after that event, it was quite disgusting.

I think moderate unions are fine, unions led by anarchists are not.

[Huckleberry Finn]

I'm divided on this. I used to be in favour of unions until the firefighters strike in the UK in 2002/03. The union led by a left-wing extremist called Andy Gilchrist was demanding a 40% pay rise!!!!! This was totally unreasonable in my opinion, and the strike action just put lives in peril. My view of unions took a real dive after that event, it was quite disgusting.

I think moderate unions are fine, unions led by anarchists are not.

How about unions led by conservatives?

[Sibboleth]

I'm divided on this. I used to be in favour of unions until the firefighters strike in the UK in 2002/03. The union led by a left-wing extremist called Andy Gilchrist was demanding a 40% pay rise!!!!! This was totally unreasonable in my opinion, and the strike action just put lives in peril. My view of unions took a real dive after that event, it was quite disgusting.

I think moderate unions are fine, unions led by anarchists are not.

How about unions led by conservatives?

They don't exist in the UK. The vast majority are a de facto part of the Labour Party (some Union bosses think it's the other way round). Some white collar unions are *technically* non-aligned...
Most other unions are led by nutters (eg: the RMT)

[??????????]

From the german side:
Our trade-unions are heading to some serious trouble, basically because of the problems you mentioned the American ones had: pushing up wages, whatever the cost. But mainly, they fight very hard to protect people from being fired...  up to a point where companies can't dare hiring today, becaus they don't know if they can  afford this one more worker after finishing the project they are working on right now.
In some areas, wages CANNOT be lowered,  but in some they can, and still trade unions refuse to show at least some felxibility.
And I'd rather work for 2 different companies within one year than not work at all.

Of course, we have problems from gouvernment side, too: if you get 1000€, the company actually PAYS around 2000€, and while this money goes into health-care and such, too, it is on the whole more than is healthy for economy.

So, just to put in another country .

Sometimes they protect people that SHOULD be fired. Unions demand to much and give their people to little.

[bullmoose88]

Indeed.

Labor unions are necessary...provided they aren't corrupt.

Wow moose, you're batting 1.000 with me on posts I agree with!  Not too often I see that out of Republicans here.  I agree that the Philly ones are definitely corrupt, but they also get a lot of undue negative press.  It's funny, I'm from Northeast Philly with an almost even mix of Dems and Repubs.  Most of us have a favorable opinion of unions, most of us are for fair trade, a good number oppose the invasion of Iraq, we basically all DESPISE Mayor John Street! (Yes, I am a Katz Democrat... shh).  The main dividing issue here is abortion.  Those that care less are Dems and those that go to Mass and subscribe to the Catholic Standard and Times are Republican.  I also notice a lot of Philly cops are Repubs as well.  Where in PA?      

Lets just say I live very close to the turnpike and I-95.

Think we're gonna win the next 2 against tampa?

[RomneyGekko Situation Hairgel]

Indeed.

Labor unions are necessary...provided they aren't corrupt.

Wow moose, you're batting 1.000 with me on posts I agree with!  Not too often I see that out of Republicans here.  I agree that the Philly ones are definitely corrupt, but they also get a lot of undue negative press.  It's funny, I'm from Northeast Philly with an almost even mix of Dems and Repubs.  Most of us have a favorable opinion of unions, most of us are for fair trade, a good number oppose the invasion of Iraq, we basically all DESPISE Mayor John Street! (Yes, I am a Katz Democrat... shh).  The main dividing issue here is abortion.  Those that care less are Dems and those that go to Mass and subscribe to the Catholic Standard and Times are Republican.  I also notice a lot of Philly cops are Repubs as well.  Where in PA?      

Lets just say I live very close to the turnpike and I-95.

Think we're gonna win the next 2 against tampa?

Flyers will win the next two.  Thye have more depserate veterans.

[opebo]

Labor unions actually don't do any good for their members - any monopolistic attempt to artificially raise prices for a commodity such as labor will only cause the buyer (employers and ultimately consumers) to look for alternatives - such as overseas, automation, etc.  It automatically leads to unemployment.  I think the only way labor unions can artificially inflate the price of labor is with government force - for example protectionism - violating the rights of buyers.

[RomneyGekko Situation Hairgel]

Labor unions actually don't do any good for their members - any monopolistic attempt to artificially raise prices for a commodity such as labor will only cause the buyer (employers and ultimately consumers) to look for alternatives - such as overseas, automation, etc.  It automatically leads to unemployment.  I think the only way labor unions can artificially inflate the price of labor is with government force - for example protectionism - violating the rights of buyers.

That's BS.  Though in some cases, unions do in fact protect lazy and/or incompetent people they shouldn't be.

[Platypus]

10th in environment for growth...thats not bad

Especially considering the Labor Party is in government in EVERY single state, and the Liberals are in power federally.

[pieman]

Labor unions actually don't do any good for their members - any monopolistic attempt to artificially raise prices for a commodity such as labor will only cause the buyer (employers and ultimately consumers) to look for alternatives - such as overseas, automation, etc.  It automatically leads to unemployment.  I think the only way labor unions can artificially inflate the price of labor is with government force - for example protectionism - violating the rights of buyers.

That's BS.  Though in some cases, unions do in fact protect lazy and/or incompetent people they shouldn't be.

Most industries or companies that have unions did something to cause significant labor problems, such as poor working conditions. The meatpacking, steel, and auto industries, for example, at one time or another treated their employees like crap. The employees were forced to organize in order to have any grievence procedures at all to provide a safe work place.

I agree that labor unions cause an anti-competitive labor market. Basically its a government sanctioned labor monopoly.

However, labor unions have been very helpful in providing safe working conditions.

Perhaps if labor unions were able to bargain working conditions, but not pay?    

[??????????]

Labor unions actually don't do any good for their members - any monopolistic attempt to artificially raise prices for a commodity such as labor will only cause the buyer (employers and ultimately consumers) to look for alternatives - such as overseas, automation, etc.  It automatically leads to unemployment.  I think the only way labor unions can artificially inflate the price of labor is with government force - for example protectionism - violating the rights of buyers.

That's BS.  Though in some cases, unions do in fact protect lazy and/or incompetent people they shouldn't be.

Most industries or companies that have unions did something to cause significant labor problems, such as poor working conditions. The meatpacking, steel, and auto industries, for example, at one time or another treated their employees like crap. The employees were forced to organize in order to have any grievence procedures at all to provide a safe work place.

I agree that labor unions cause an anti-competitive labor market. Basically its a government sanctioned labor monopoly.

However, labor unions have been very helpful in providing safe working conditions.

Perhaps if labor unions were able to bargain working conditions, but not pay?    

Labor conditions for the most part are EXCELLENT in this nation. We have OSHA and the DoL to oversee this plus state level OSHA agencies. Believe me we get inspected 3 times a year. I know what their standards are and they ARE looking out for the best interests of the workers. Labor Unions are about profits these days.

[WalterMitty]

i think everyone here who regularly reads my posts is familiar with my position on unions.

i think they are outdated, corrupt, money making rackets which causes an unproductive 'us vs. them' attitude in the workplace.

every state should have a right to work law. it boggles my mind that self described 'pro-choice' democrats are opposed to right to work laws.  no worker should ever be forced to join a union.