The universe is 12,000 years old. Welcome to Religious Fascism

[MissCatholic]

This is not an attack on the catholic church. this is an attack on right wing political evangelicalism
What would the world be like without religion?
What would the world be like if everyone was religious?

What would the repulbican party be like if there was no religion?
Would America be a better place with or without religion?

I think religion is a good thing for society. It gives hope to people that their is something for them after their life.

But their is a movement in America that is destroying the country and dividing it into two parts.

Religious Fascism is growing at such a rate that we now have lousy politicians from the republican that just say 'i believe in God, i am pro-life, i pray for you all, god bless you and god bless America' Science though has to step up.

The voice of Reason is Science.

Evangelicals like Falwell, Robertson, Dobson, and various people in America are telling their people that the universe is 12,000 years old.

Science tells us that is a flat out lie.

Dinosaurs were around 65million years ago. So if they are 65m years old how can the universe be 12,000 years old? Science is wrong?

The federal government has an obligation to step in and tell its citizens what is fact and fiction. You can not have 62% of the Republican party that believes that te universe is 12,000 years old. Its bad for America.

When you go to an Evangelical event, it reminds you of the old Nuremburg Nazi rallies. Question what you will but we have the answers. If you question these people with science they say to you 'you have your beliefs and we have ours. we disagree with your opinions now leave us in peace.'

Excuse me, you are lying to your people and then telling them to vote Republican as you have just built a church that cost $12m where the majority of the money has come from the republican party.

Science and Religion can live together. But the more right Religion goes, the further science will fight back.

You cant have people in an educated world believing that the universe is 12,000 years old. We as people cant stop this lie from spreading. its the duty of its government to ban this type of speech. it is flat out wrong.

[afleitch]

I think that 'religion' is a very broad term when used here. Such a position is NOT the official view of the Roman Catholic Church for example, who has recently spoken out against those who support creationism and an earth thats only a few thousand years old. IIRC Catholicsm is the largest or one of the largest religious group in America, a fact that seems to be pretty much ignored. It is however the view of a small but incresingly significant number of evangelical Christian groups. The government has no obligation to say 'you are being lied to' but neither should local, state or national government promote pseudo-science either through funding or through the education system.

Those groups who do promote such clap-trap may label themselves 'Christian' but by no means do they represent mainstream Christianity.

[MissCatholic]

I think that 'religion' is a very broad term when used here. Such a position is NOT the official view of the Roman Catholic Church for example, who has recently spoken out against those who support creationism and an earth thats only a few thousand years old. IIRC Catholicsm is the largest or one of the largest religious group in America, a fact that seems to be pretty much ignored. It is however the view of a small but incresingly significant number of evangelical Christian groups. The government has no obligation to say 'you are being lied to' but neither should local, state or national government promote pseudo-science either through funding or through the education system.

Those groups who do promote such clap-trap may label themselves 'Christian' but by no means do they represent mainstream Christianity.

The first thing i highlighted in my post is that this is not an attack on the catholic church. this is an attack on evangelicalism that is destroying this country.

You cant have people on a stage built by republican money telling people that the universe is 12,000 years old.

When people challenge this they are told to leave peacefully and let them get on with their beliefs. We cant do that. you are polluted the minds of millions and worst of all children are being told lies.

[MODU]

Were you here 12,000 years ago?  Do you know for sure that the universe is older than that?  Could it be remotely possible that God, through his almighty power, just might be able to create a universe which appears aged though it is still relatively young?  

Personally, I perscribe to the logic that "God time" is much different than "human time."  When the Bible talks about the world being created in 6 days, those aren't literal days (though it could very well be only 6 days for someone with unlimited power).  Two verses in the Bible give the hint that our perception of time is different than Gods.  Psalms 90:4 says "For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night."  2 Peter 3:8 says "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."  This leads to confusions in some of the literary believers of the Bible (which are, in fact, a very tiny portion of the "Christian" religions).  

But again, no one can say for a fact that God did not create an aged universe, from distant galaxies to fossils in the ground to anchient texts burried in the sand.

[MODU]

And to answer your poll, no, the government doesn't have an obligation to "correct" someone's Biblical teachings.  I can just imagine how you/your party would react if Bush did.  They'd be screaming "Separation of Church and State" from every rooftop.

[afleitch]

I know you were not attacking the Catholic Church

All I was pointing out is that the vocal evangelical is now seen as the only 'Christian' to which politicians, theorists, the media etc give the time of day. They do not represent most Christians, they only represent themselves and we are allowing them, in my opinion, too much political air time.

EDIT- And being allowed to not believe in creationist clap-trap is one of the reasons thats sometimes im glad i'm Catholic!

[John Dibble]

You cant have people on a stage built by republican money telling people that the universe is 12,000 years old.

Yes, we can - last time I checked the 1st amendment gaurantees freedom of speech and freedom of religion. If these people hold the belief that the Earth is so many years old then they have every right to not only hold that belief but to express it, just as you have the right to express that you disagree.

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So? It's a private function - they have the right to kick out anyone they want.

If anyone's talking like a fascist here, it's you.

[MissCatholic]

You cant have people on a stage built by republican money telling people that the universe is 12,000 years old.

Yes, we can - last time I checked the 1st amendment gaurantees freedom of speech and freedom of religion. If these people hold the belief that the Earth is so many years old then they have every right to not only hold that belief but to express it, just as you have the right to express that you disagree.

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So? It's a private function - they have the right to kick out anyone they want.

If anyone's talking like a fascist here, it's you.

OK, if i say im Napolean Bonaparte you will say no your not becasue he is dead. But if i take 50 children put them in a room away from society and teach them only what i want, when they get to 25 they will believe that im Napolean Bonaparte. It doesnt matter what you will say to them they will believe whatever i say because they know no different.

The Nzais said 'the jews are bad, the jews are bad' and the children believed them. they never stopped believing that until they were told the truth by responsbile people that dont have an agenda.

When you have parents telling their children that the world is 12,000 years old as it was told by their parents and everybody in your community believes in the same thing its a duty for outsiders to tell them the truth.

You cant tell a society that they are wrong as an individual it is the government in power to tell them that they are being lied too and it is very very irreponsible.

[MODU]

There is a big difference between claiming to be Napoleon, and stating that the universe is only 12,000 years old.  People were alive when Napoleon was as well as when he died.  That history is recorded and can be backed up.  No one was here when the universe was created, and the oldest known written language only dates back 6000 years ago.  So no one knows if the universe was in existence before 12,000 years ago or not.

[John Dibble]

OK, if i say im Napolean Bonaparte you will say no your not becasue he is dead. But if i take 50 children put them in a room away from society and teach them only what i want, when they get to 25 they will believe that im Napolean Bonaparte. It doesnt matter what you will say to them they will believe whatever i say because they know no different.

A completely unrealistic situation. No parent would consent to having their kids removed from society in such a fashion for one, unless you're kidnapping these kids in which case you should be put in prison. Any parents who would consent to it would probably raise their kids to believe crazy stuff anyways.

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Yes, they did. The Nazis were also the government - great example of why we should let the government decide what is true and what is not right there. It took responsible non-German government people to tell them the truth.

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Ok, I might agree with you here. But the outsiders don't have to be the government - you seem to have quite a mouth on you, so why don't you do it? Why don't you be the responsible person?

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Yes, I can tell society it is wrong as an individual - I have freedom of speech too, you know. And like I said, you pointed out a sterling example of how the government will point out the truth with the Nazi government. Why the hell do you trust the government so much? Hell, isn't the government run by the Republicans right now? You know, the ones you're bashing in this topic?

[DanielX]

Calling it 'fascsism' is a little presumptuous. Especially since it is largely correct. They only left out six zeroes .

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I don't see the problem.

If one assumes that only natural forces are responsible for the observed structure of the universe, then 12 billion years is very reasonable.  (Of course, you still have the problem of origin of the universe since the universe can not create energy, but that is another discussion.  Also, this isn't a problem for those who believe God created the universe through the Big Bang and evolution).

If some people believe a supernatural force is responsible for creating the universe in its current state around 10,000 years ago, then they are still in agreement with current scientific observation, they simply don't believe the prevailing assumption that everything in the past was the result of natural processes.

So, basically the "argument" between science and the bible is NOT concerning the current state of the universe, rather the argument is over the past history of the universe.  Science assumes no supernatural influence over the past 12 billion years, while the bible claims supernatural influence.

[CheeseWhiz]

Were you here 12,000 years ago?  Do you know for sure that the universe is older than that?  Could it be remotely possible that God, through his almighty power, just might be able to create a universe which appears aged though it is still relatively young? 

And to answer your poll, no, the government doesn't have an obligation to "correct" someone's Biblical teachings.  I can just imagine how you/your party would react if Bush did.  They'd be screaming "Separation of Church and State" from every rooftop.

^^^^^

The Government doesn't have an obligation to say which scientific theories are true and which are false.  Does the Government have the right to tell the Muslims that Muhammad was wrong and the Allah isn't a real god?   Or that Jesus didn't exist?  The Government has absolutely no right to tell us what we should or should not believe.

So, I guess you're saying Falwell, Robertson and Dobson don't have a right to free speech?

[MODU]

So, I guess you're saying Falwell, Robertson and Dobson don't have a right to free speech?

hehehe . . . are you asking Miss Catholic?   

[opebo]

These cultists should be fed to lions, but, failing that, may be allowed to roam free.  However any offspring should be removed by Child Protective Services so as to avoid forcible indoctrination by the abusive parents.

[David S]

And to answer your poll, no, the government doesn't have an obligation to "correct" someone's Biblical teachings.  I can just imagine how you/your party would react if Bush did.  They'd be screaming "Separation of Church and State" from every rooftop.

Excellent point Modu.

[The Duke]

That depends what you mean.  If you mean that government officials should seek out places where religion is "wrong" and taunt the religious, then no.  Should they teach things in school that are true, such as the round Earth, even if those truths may contradict what some religious fanatics think?  Yes.

[A18]

The federal government does not have schools. Well, okay, in DC or whatever, but I doubt that's what "she" meant.

I'd like to add that government certainly should not be telling private schools what to teach.

[angus]

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absolutely not.  the government has but one obligation regarding religion:  stay out of it.

[Virginian87]

I don't think you're really Catholic, MissCatholic.  Give it up, already.  We know it's you nomo.

[A18]

I don't think you're really Catholic, MissCatholic.  Give it up, already.  We know it's you nomo.

How do you remember nomo?

[Virginian87]

I don't think you're really Catholic, MissCatholic.  Give it up, already.  We know it's you nomo.

How do you remember nomo?

I've been following this board since October 2004, but I only signed on in July 2005 because my university e-mail wouldn't reject Dave Leip's notification like AOL's server.  So yes, I know about nomorelies.

[Alcon]

Since the accounts were used concurrently (I just checked), this might as well be the place to say it:

MissCatholic is nomorelies, and lives in Britain, not South Dakota/Wisconsin/whatever.

[CheeseWhiz]

So, I guess you're saying Falwell, Robertson and Dobson don't have a right to free speech?

hehehe . . . are you asking Miss Catholic?   

Yes.

[Gabu]

I like the part where it's fascism to hold an opinion about the age of the universe but somehow not fascism to ban speech expressing this opinion.

I sincerely hope that it's also fascism to not have a clue what the word "fascism" means.