Yes or No. Is the universe 12,000 years old? Dont hide behind your bible. No but

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Well, if you can't even prove the existence of these supposed 'forces' then how can you further claim that one of them is truthful and the others are demons? You've made a claim - back it up.

And exactly how would you like claims about the unseen to be backed up?  How could a blind man in 1500AD expect those that see to "back-up" their claims that they are witnessing the sight of stars in the sky?

[John Dibble]

Well, if you can't even prove the existence of these supposed 'forces' then how can you further claim that one of them is truthful and the others are demons? You've made a claim - back it up.

And exactly how would you like claims about the unseen to be backed up?  How could a blind man in 1500AD expect those that see to "back-up" their claims that they are witnessing the sight of stars in the sky?

Don't blame me for asking questions. You're the one trying to peddle the unseen as incontrovertible fact - I'm asking for your proof that it's fact. If you have no proof that it's fact, then it obviously isn't incontrovertible, now is it?

[nlm]

I have simply looked at the evidence and dismissed your belief as being so unlikely that it isn't worth considering in a serious manner

Then what did you make of Nebuchadnezzar's writings which back up the bible's account of the Tower of Babel?

---

let me ask an interesting question - are the true believers in Islam also closed minded because they fail to believe as you do. How about the true belivers in Wicca? Or the true believers in invisible killer aardvarks? Or how about an actual atheist?

I believe that there are unseen "forces" behind the world's religion.  I just don't believe those other "forces" are telling the truth.  I believe they are demons.

---

I would imagine your answer would need to be yes given the reasoning (or lack there of) you are using.

Your imagination is Wrong.

---

There is a difference between being closed minded and not being willing to make stuff up (or allow other to do so for you) and then believing it without the possibility it is incorrect. But again, I'm sure that is beyond a cultist.

Are you saying that I have made up my relationship with Christ?  For what purpose or motive would I have done that?

You are precious!

Where did I say that all acounts from the bible had no backing what so ever?

Demons eh? Creating other religions? Let me get up off the floor. So why is it that you believe this? And what makes you think the "demons" didn't make up your religion in a effort to throw YOU off the true path of Taoism or what ever? This should be nice and circular. Do you believe I'm a demon sent to throw you off your path?

I can only guess at your motivations. Some common ones are as simple as the desire to be correct, to believe one has the answers to questions that are beyond them, to achieve some false sense of superiority, to judge others as being morally inferior, to add inspiration to an otherwise pathetic existence, a respect for what they were taught by their parents, an inability to think beyond what they were taught in their youth, a need to believe in a higher power, a need for some sort of meaning in this life, to be a part of a group, etc.. I don't have a clue as to what your story is. I think I have a fairly good guess, but that is all it would be, and I won't insult you by actually making it.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

And exactly how would you like claims about the unseen to be backed up?  How could a blind man in 1500AD expect those that see to "back-up" their claims that they are witnessing the sight of stars in the sky?

Don't blame me for asking questions. You're the one trying to peddle the unseen as incontrovertible fact - I'm asking for your proof that it's fact. If you have no proof that it's fact, then it obviously isn't incontrovertible, now is it?

Isn't incontrovertible the same as thing as undeniable?....And since you deny Christ, and since I have acknowledged your denial, how can you claim that I present Christ as undeniable?

To the contrary, I am saying that it is impossible to accept Christ unless you are called by God. 

---

So, again, I ask this question, and I hope that you will answer it:

How could a blind man in 1500AD accept the fact that there are stars in the sky when he could easily deny their existence based on what he himself can perceive?

[nlm]

Isn't incontrovertible the same as thing as undeniable?....And since you deny Christ, and since I have acknowledged your denial, how can you claim that I present Christ as undeniable?

To the contrary, I am saying that it is impossible to accept Christ unless you are called by God. 

---

So, again, I ask this question, and I hope that you will answer it:

How could a blind man in 1500AD accept the fact that there are stars in the sky when he could easily deny their existence based on what he himself can perceive?

If a blind man in 500AD said that the stars were pin holes in a black cloth streched across the sky how would you proven him wrong at that time, even though he was dead wrong.

I see the desire to be more than your fellow humans and know things that are beyond you shining through the pin holes.

[John Dibble]

And exactly how would you like claims about the unseen to be backed up?  How could a blind man in 1500AD expect those that see to "back-up" their claims that they are witnessing the sight of stars in the sky?

Don't blame me for asking questions. You're the one trying to peddle the unseen as incontrovertible fact - I'm asking for your proof that it's fact. If you have no proof that it's fact, then it obviously isn't incontrovertible, now is it?

Isn't incontrovertible the same as thing as undeniable?....And since you deny Christ, and since I have acknowledged your denial, how can you claim that I present Christ as undeniable?

To the contrary, I am saying that it is impossible to accept Christ unless you are called by God.

You're taking the word 'undeniable' far too literally. An incontrovertible fact is undeniable in the sense that the fact in question has so much evidence that it is indeed a fact that any denial of the fact would flies right into the face of logic, reason, and general sanity. For instance, I could deny that humans need to ingest nutrients to continue living, but that would be quite silly considering we know that people who don't eat anything die of starvation and that we can demostrate it. The definition of incontrovertible I am using here is 'necessarily or demonstrably true', not literally undeniable.

You peddle your beliefs as incontrovertible fact in the sense that you say anyone who denies your beliefs as being facts is a fool. Yet, at the same time you cannot prove your beliefs as facts. How is it that people can be fools for being skeptical about something that is unproveable?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Easy - he knew he had a handicap that didn't allow him to perceive things that others were able to. However, there were numerous enough people, who varied in beliefs, that told him that they could see the stars. Seeing as there would be logically no reason for them to lie about the existence of stars, he decided they were telling him the truth. He couldn't know with 100% certainty of course, but using reason he determined that there were stars that other people managed to perceive.

[Josh/Devilman88]

I am not going to say what I believe, because y'all will just bash me and put me down for it.

[John Dibble]

I am not going to say what I believe, because y'all will just bash me and put me down for it.

I'm fine with other people having faith, I just don't like being told I'm a fool who's going to hell simply for not believing in it myself.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I can only guess at your motivations. Some common ones are as simple as the desire to be correct, to believe one has the answers to questions that are beyond them

Well, everyone has that desire, so that in itself doesn’t explain it.

---

to achieve some false sense of superiority

By having all my friends and family initially believe I was crazy?  Hardly.

---

to judge others as being morally inferior

Well, since I consider myself the worst of sinners, that is hardly a fit.

---

to add inspiration to an otherwise pathetic existence

As if I needed any inspiration.  I had many interests.

---

a respect for what they were taught by their parents

Try again - my testimony was contrary to what my parents believed.

---

an inability to think beyond what they were taught in their youth

Again, my testimony is contrary to what I was taught in my youth.

---

, a need to believe in a higher power, a need for some sort of meaning in this life

I already had science as my god, and I was quite good at it.  And I had already had my name published in magazines distributed world wide in two different fields of science:  astronomy and geology.  I gained recognition in astronomy by way of a “hobby”, and my recognition in geology came through published papers and giving seminars in my career in oil-well situation.  My work in both fields is still referenced today as others continue to build and publish research papers on the data I provided.

---

to be a part of a group, etc.

Sorry, I didn’t meet Christ in a church.  And I am not a big fan of churches, though I do attend one once a week at least 80% of the time.  (Would be closer to 95% except for the fact I have kids and they pick up bugs from school)

---

I don't have a clue as to what your story is. I think I have a fairly good guess, but that is all it would be, and I won't insult you by actually making it.

Don’t worry, I have the insult category already covered, so be my guest:

"The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me." (Romans 15:3 Psalm 69:9)

---

Let me give some more reasons why I wouldn’t have had a motive:

No one living a normal life would want to turn family, friends, and career upside down by making up a deceitful story.  It is not as if I robbed a bank and therefore had motive to cover my tracts by making up a bunch of lies.

Also, at the time of my conversion, I was in love in a girl I waited a whole year to date.  Why would I attempt to win her over by telling her that God sent me to tell her that she and her family, and all her friends were deceived? 

Wouldn’t my chances been far better if I had simply accepted her church’s version of Christianity especially since I had previously subscribe to her church magazines and hadn’t found anything wrong with it?  I wasn’t going to any church at the time and hadn’t for years.  And my closest friends went to her church, so why wouldn’t I have chosen to “go along to get along”?

Why would I invest so much time and energy in an “invented” message that was so contrary to my interest at the time?  What is there to gain by making everyone you know believe you went crazy?  And why would I persist in the deceit when it brings me no financial gain?

[afleitch]

Why would I attempt to win her over by telling her that God sent me to tell her that she and her family, and all her friends were deceived? 

That is why you really disturb me.

[??????????]

Why would I attempt to win her over by telling her that God sent me to tell her that she and her family, and all her friends were deceived? 

That is why you really disturb me.

What is so "disturbing" about that?

[afleitch]

Why would I attempt to win her over by telling her that God sent me to tell her that she and her family, and all her friends were deceived? 

That is why you really disturb me.

What is so "disturbing" about that?

He believes he is a prophet. It's the ultimate in self-centred righteousness

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Easy - he knew he had a handicap that didn't allow him to perceive things that others were able to. However, there were numerous enough people, who varied in beliefs, that told him that they could see the stars. Seeing as there would be logically no reason for them to lie about the existence of stars, he decided they were telling him the truth. He couldn't know with 100% certainty of course, but using reason he determined that there were stars that other people managed to perceive.

So, you're saying through the TESTIMONY of others he believed in what he couldn't measure?

How is that any different from what I am saying?

"You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth" (Acts 1:8 )

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."  (Heb 12:1-2 )

[??????????]

Why would I attempt to win her over by telling her that God sent me to tell her that she and her family, and all her friends were deceived? 

That is why you really disturb me.

What is so "disturbing" about that?

He believes he is a prophet. It's the ultimate in self-centred righteousness

Where did he ever claim that? Stop misrepresenting him. Many many good people believe that good inspires them in some way or another, towards a specific vocation or particular person to be their spouse. It's not uncommon for many folks. You just don't want to believe it's real.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

He believes he is a prophet. It's the ultimate in self-centred righteousness

First, if I were trying to build myself up, then why haven't I kept on giving "prophecies"?  Have I ever come on this forum claiming I have a word from God directed at anyone on this forum?

Second, you're basically accusing all the writers of the bible of being self-centered.  You are contradicting, once again, your own faith.

[afleitch]

He believes he is a prophet. It's the ultimate in self-centred righteousness

First, if I were trying to build myself up, then why haven't I kept on giving "prophecies"?  Have I ever come on this forum claiming I have a word from God directed at anyone on this forum?

Second, you're basically accusing all the writers of the bible of being self-centered.  You are contradicting, once again, your own faith.

I was referring to your own sense of self-righteousness, not that of the prophets.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I was referring to your own sense of self-righteousness, not that of the prophets.

How am I saying anything different or contrary to what they said?

[J. J.]

In all fairness, has Jmfcst ever actually claimed that the universe is 12,000 years old?

The is a big difference between "God created the universe" and "God created the universe on Jan 25, 9,997 BC."

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I'm fine with other people having faith, I just don't like being told I'm a fool who's going to hell simply for not believing in it myself.

And what is your point?

Do you think I like being told I'm going to hell unless I overcome my sinful nature?  Doesn't the bible state that the judgment of God starts with believers like me?

1Pet 4:17-18 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" (Peter was quoting Pro 11:31)"

So, you and I are in the same boat, but my turn to be judged by God will come before the judgment of unbelievers....but consider the second part of Peter's statement - if believers are going to be judged, what will happen to unbelievers?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You peddle your beliefs as incontrovertible fact in the sense that you say anyone who denies your beliefs as being facts is a fool.

I am not the only calling you a "fool", rather the bible is:

Psa 14:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

But look at the part of that verse not bolded...doesn't that also point the finger at me?  So, how have I singled you out?

[nlm]

I can only guess at your motivations. Some common ones are as simple as the desire to be correct, to believe one has the answers to questions that are beyond them

Well, everyone has that desire, so that in itself doesn’t explain it.

---

to achieve some false sense of superiority

By having all my friends and family initially believe I was crazy?  Hardly.

and on and on. Didn't I already say I don't know you. But the little I do know indicates you are able to fool yourself about a number of things. Why not what you list here as well?

You do seem to show an odd glee in your smug moral superiority that I have seldom seen. But I would guess that came to you after you had been playing at "true believer" for a bit. Was AA your path? Honest question.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You do seem to show an odd glee in your smug moral superiority that I have seldom seen. But I would guess that came to you after you had been playing at "true believer" for a bit.

No, you just find it "odd" to have a Christian calling for repentance, because most Christians today don't preach repentence.

---

Was AA your path? Honest question.

Are you mistaking me for a teetotaler?  No, as a matter of fact, I probably drink an average of a couple of drinks a week.  And I have never gone to an AA meeting, nor have I ever been invited to an AA meeting, nor have I ever needed to go.

Actually, I didn’t acquire a taste for alcohol until a couple of years ago, and I still only like certain premium beers and tequila (frozen margaritas).  I don’t like the taste of wine, light beer, bourbon, etc, etc, etc.

[nlm]

Sooooo, if you are saying

I am saying that it is impossible to accept Christ unless you are called by God. 

why bother calling for repentance

No, you just find it "odd" to have a Christian calling for repentance, because most Christians today don't preach repentence.

unless you just like to be smug?

As for the AA question, it's one of the only positive uses for your kind of fairy tales I've seen. Sometimes when people have sunk so low, it becomes easier to understand how they reached their current state.

My only curiousity left about you is how you actually reached the state of dellusion that you have. Share if you'd like. The oddities of human nature always interest me.

[John Dibble]

So, you're saying through the TESTIMONY of others he believed in what he couldn't measure?

How is that any different from what I am saying?

"You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth" (Acts 1:8 )

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."  (Heb 12:1-2 )

Testimony is not a complete proof, nor did I assert it was - as I said, he couldn't be 100% sure that everyone wasn't just lying to him, but that there would be no profit or motive for so many people to lie to him. Further, it is likely there was no conflicting testimony, as I seriously doubt anyone who could denied the existence of stars to him, and thusly he could reasonably assume that the testimony was accurate. With religion on the other hand, there is motive for people to lie, such as the testimony of false prophets in order to rally followers, influence, power, and wealth. Furthermore, there is vastly conflicting testimony in regards to religious matters - you've outright indicated so yourself. Since there is so much testimony that contradicts with regards to religion, and since not one of the testimonies has been sufficiently backed or disproven by empirical evidence, the testimony of almost every one of these religions is insufficient to draw many conclusions. They all claim to be the truth, but they can't all be absolutely true given the number of contradictions between them, so without more to go on I can't make a decision. There's also the matter of determining whether testimony seems realistic or plausible in the first place.

In short, testimony can be valid, invalid, or somewhere in between, and to determine where it lies we must use reason, logic, and (when available) outside evidence. If there's not enough to go on to establish

I'm fine with other people having faith, I just don't like being told I'm a fool who's going to hell simply for not believing in it myself.

And what is your point?

Do you think I like being told I'm going to hell unless I overcome my sinful nature?  Doesn't the bible state that the judgment of God starts with believers like me?

1Pet 4:17-18 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" (Peter was quoting Pro 11:31)"

So, you and I are in the same boat, but my turn to be judged by God will come before the judgment of unbelievers....but consider the second part of Peter's statement - if believers are going to be judged, what will happen to unbelievers?

No, you and I are not in the same boat - you and I are in entirely different boats. You are given a free pass simply for believing what the Bible tells you, but I'm going to hell for questioning the validity of the book. It's not being judged for being good or evil I despise from your god, it's the fact that for some unexplained reason he needs us to worship him - not respect, worship and fear. And as a side note, I disagree with the idea that man is sinful and evil in nature - society just wouldn't be possible if people were naturally evil, and I've seen too many acts of compassion and caring from both the religious and secular to thing that.

Your god demands people get down on their knees, fear him, and grovel. Yet, at the same time he claims to love us like a father - last time I checked, you shouldn't have to fear a person who loves you. I have yet to have you answer this question, so I'll ask again: If not to simply to satisfy some sort of narcissism, why does your supposedly all powerful and all knowing god demand the worship of those who are as insects? Why does he have to threaten us with eternal torment to gain our worship?

If I had all that power, I frankly wouldn't care whether I was worshipped or not, simply that people tried to live in a good manner. To me, to love is not to demand unquestioning obedience, fear, and worship - to demand those things are to serve the self, to serve greed and vanity, not to love - rather, to me love is the spirit of devoting one's self to another, even if one receives absolutely nothing in return. It appears to me that your god doesn't love us, he loves only himself.

You peddle your beliefs as incontrovertible fact in the sense that you say anyone who denies your beliefs as being facts is a fool.

I am not the only calling you a "fool", rather the bible is:

Psa 14:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

But look at the part of that verse not bolded...doesn't that also point the finger at me?  So, how have I singled you out?

Yes, the Bible says that - but the Bible isn't proof. Further, you can't use the Bible to prove itself because that's circular logic. If the bible is a lie meant to deceive then of course it's going to try to claim that those who don't believe it are wrong, just like pretty much every one of the other religions you claim are run by demons. Again, how do you know you haven't been deceived, that one of the other religions is instead the truth, or that every religion is run by demons and God just doesn't care who you worship so long as you're a good person? After all, if you're being deceived by demons would you know it?

But furthermore I have never said "There is no God" - I only said "I don't know whether or not God exists, much less the specifics of the nature and motivations of that being(or beings), for I lack the evidence to come to a conclusion". To assert that there is no god or gods without sufficient evidence is just as foolish to assert there is without sufficient evidence - hence the reason I'm agnostic. If your god was reasonable and just, he would understand that I choose to employ the gifts I was given instead of demanding that I abandon the use of the brain he created me with and bow down in fear.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Sooooo, if you are saying

I am saying that it is impossible to accept Christ unless you are called by God. 

why bother calling for repentance

There is no way for me to know whom will have their eyes opened by God.  The call goes out, and God opens the eyes of those who would believe.

Act 2:47 And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

---

No, you just find it "odd" to have a Christian calling for repentance, because most Christians today don't preach repentence.

unless you just like to be smug?

As for the AA question, it's one of the only positive uses for your kind of fairy tales I've seen. Sometimes when people have sunk so low, it becomes easier to understand how they reached their current state.

My only curiousity left about you is how you actually reached the state of dellusion that you have. Share if you'd like. The oddities of human nature always interest me.

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