Yes or No. Is the universe 12,000 years old? Dont hide behind your bible. No but

[nlm]

Sooooo, if you are saying

I am saying that it is impossible to accept Christ unless you are called by God. 

why bother calling for repentance

There is no way for me to know whom will have their eyes opened by God.  The call goes out, and God opens the eyes of those who would believe.

Act 2:47 And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Seems like a big waste of your time to go around bible bashing if only "god" can open their eyes. I mean, if she has opened their eyes - what the heck do they need you for? And if she hasn't, well, same deal - you're just spinning your wheels and being smug for nobody but you.

[nlm]

My only curiousity left about you is how you actually reached the state of dellusion that you have. Share if you'd like. The oddities of human nature always interest me.

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=33859.msg765796;topicseen#msg765796


[/quote]

Thanks for sharing! I guess I've learned what I wished from you.

[CheeseWhiz]

I am not going to say what I believe, because y'all will just bash me and put me down for it.

I'm fine with other people having faith, I just don't like being told I'm a fool who's going to hell simply for not believing in it myself.

I think that goes for both sides, minus the going to hell part if it's the evolutionist telling the creationist that he's wrong   Really, no one can say for certain how old the Earth is.  Yes, people can make educated guesses, but for anyone to act like they know and that's that is just being plain foolish, whatever he or she believes.

Seriously everyone, what exactly is the point in arguing over it?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Testimony is not a complete proof, nor did I assert it was - as I said, he couldn't be 100% sure that everyone wasn't just lying to him

Faith shouldn’t be confused with blind faith.  There are certain things I accept with “blind faith” like the Exodus.  There are other things I experience firsthand – Christ.  God never intended Christianity to be about blind faith, rather Christianity is the path chosen by God to reveal himself personally to each individual believer.

“I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." (Heb 13:10, Jer 31:33)

“Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.” (Rev 3:20)

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Further, it is likely there was no conflicting testimony, as I seriously doubt anyone who could denied the existence of stars to him, and thusly he could reasonably assume that the testimony was accurate. With religion on the other hand…They all claim to be the truth

True, but that comes as no surprise:

2Cor 11:13-15 “Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness.”

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No, you and I are not in the same boat - you and I are in entirely different boats. You are given a free pass simply for believing what the Bible tells you, but I'm going to hell for questioning the validity of the book.

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I disagree with the idea that man is sinful and evil in nature - society just wouldn't be possible if people were naturally evil, and I've seen too many acts of compassion and caring from both the religious and secular to thing that.

Having a sinful nature doesn’t mean you can’t also show acts of love and kindness.

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Your god demands people get down on their knees, fear him, and grovel. Yet, at the same time he claims to love us like a father - last time I checked, you shouldn't have to fear a person who loves you.

You’re absolutely right, perfect love drives out fear.  But the only reason to fear is if you’re disobedient.  For instance, I fear what the cops could do to me, therefore, I don’t commit serious crime and hence I have no reason to fear the police even though my fear keeps me in line.

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I have yet to have you answer this question, so I'll ask again: If not to simply to satisfy some sort of narcissism, why does your supposedly all powerful and all knowing god demand the worship of those who are as insects?

He created us for his own pleasure.  We are not insects to him, but set apart for his purpose.  He desires friendship and relationship.  He created us to reflect his glory because he and is glory are good.  We went astray, so he came down on our level and took the place of our punishment in order to redeem us.

His command to worship him is only him pointing us to his goodness.  What else other than God would you have as our center of attention?  What else is greater than him?

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Why does he have to threaten us with eternal torment to gain our worship?

What kind of parent would he be if he didn’t warn us of consequence?

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If I had all that power, I frankly wouldn't care whether I was worshipped or not, simply that people tried to live in a good manner. To me, to love is not to demand unquestioning obedience, fear, and worship - to demand those things are to serve the self, to serve greed and vanity, not to love - rather, to me love is the spirit of devoting one's self to another, even if one receives absolutely nothing in return. It appears to me that your god doesn't love us, he loves only himself.

“… simply that people tried to live in a good manner”…there is no one good except God, that why he directs us to himself.

“…To me, to love is not to demand unquestioning obedience, fear, and worship - to demand those things are to serve the self”….To the contrary, Christ did serve us, he even took our place and gave his life for us.

“…rather, to me love is the spirit of devoting one's self to another, even if one receives absolutely nothing in return”…What could you add to God that he doesn’t already have?  He owns the whole universe, and he didn’t owe us anything…yet he took our place on the cross and made us inheritors of a new creation – a new heaven and a new earth.  He adopted us and presented us as his sons in front of all creation, both physical creation and the heavenly realms.  Our names are made known to angels as well as to demons, and we will judge both!

[John Dibble]

True, but that comes as no surprise:

2Cor 11:13-15 “Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness.”

And how, pray tell, do you tell that Satan isn't fooling you? That the bible isn't a book of one of the demon religions cleverly constructed to keep you off the right path?

Oh, and let's suppose you're right for a minute about the demon thing in the other religions, and that you're also right that your religion is the correct one. If those two things are the case, why does god not choose to reveal himself to those being deceived by demons and guide them to the path of righteousness as he did with you? Why does he allow them to be dragged into the darkness of the second death by deceivers(who you would admit are convincing them they are doing good, that they are pleasing their creator, just as you try to do) if he loves them? Does he love them less? What has made them unworthy, why are they abandoned and never chosen?

And it also seems that a disproportionate amount of these people aren't white - Arabs, blacks, asians, and those that tend to inhabit non-Christian countries - is your god a racist or something?

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I'll leave this as disagreement - what I've seen in humans is that they're more of a clean slate than having a nature inclined one way or the other.

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Yes, the fear has to do with punishment, punishment for not giving in to self serving demands - he demands worship, which only serves him. If the standards were a bit less self-serving it might be another matter altogether.

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Last time I checked, it was Adam and Eve, two individuals, that went astray, yet your God blames the rest of us for it. The sins of the father do not pass unto the son, but your god seems to think they do.

Besides, if your God didn't wish us to stray, why did he give us temptation in the first place? Why did he put the one thing, the tree with the special fruit, within their reach? If he was all knowing and wise, surely he would have known that the devil would come and tempt Adam and Eve into eating the fruit and straying from him! So then, why did he not take that the simple precaution of not putting the tree there?

And once again, why does an all powerful being feel the need to be the center of attention? He's all powerful for crying out loud! You'd think he wouldn't need his ego stroked. You'd also think, being all powerful and all, he could give us a guiding hand without having to have us worship him, wouldn't you?

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What kind of parent would he be if he didn’t warn us of consequence?[/quote]

Last time I checked, my parents don't demand that I worship them. My parents were quite reasonable about what was and wasn't acceptable to them, and quite reasonable about what the consequences were.

As a side note, I think a 'karma' system is the most reasonable kind - you basically receive what you dish out. There would be no one heaven or hell, rather the afterlife would be forged for each individual by the quality of their soul, the very core of who they are. People who are exceptionally good would be given an exceptional paradise, those who are extremely evil and remorseless would be placed in a hell fitting of their misdeeds, and those in between would receive something close to their own alignment. Of course, I don't think that it should be eternally the same - for instance, someone who receives a hellish place could change it if they come to understand that what they did in life was wrong and would undo it if they could(not out of detest of the punishment, but out of true remorse and desire to change). Consequences and forgiveness shouldn't stop so long as we're capable of changing.

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I disagree. Your source for this notion that nobody is good except god comes from the Bible, which once again, is not a proven tome. Besides, if he was truly a wise and understanding being wouldn't he be satisfied with us attempting to resist our supposed sinful nature instead of giving into it, even if that didn't involve worship? He knows we're not perfect, after all, but striving to be good should be rewarded whether or not one worships the correct man in the sky, should it not? Why should, say, a Hindu or a Buddhist who dedicates his life to helping his fellow man at great sacrifice to himself be sent to eternal torment simply for not being a Christian?

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He's demanding worship - obviously he doesn't have that, and clearly he wants it. He didn't make a selfless sacrifice if he's making a demand in exchange for the fruits of that sacrifice. And no, he didn't give his life - if he's an undying, immortal being so he can't die, period. Perhaps give the appearance of death, but if he's truly eternal a false death is not a real sacrifice.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

And how, pray tell, do you tell that Satan isn't fooling you? That the bible isn't a book of one of the demon religions cleverly constructed to keep you off the right path?

I can test the spirits - the spirit that acknowledges Jesus is from God.

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why does god not choose to reveal himself to those being deceived by demons and guide them to the path of righteousness as he did with you? Why does he allow them to be dragged into the darkness of the second death by deceivers(who you would admit are convincing them they are doing good, that they are pleasing their creator, just as you try to do) if he loves them? Does he love them less? What has made them unworthy, why are they abandoned and never chosen?

Rom 9:22-24 "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called?"

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And it also seems that a disproportionate amount of these people aren't white - Arabs, blacks, asians, and those that tend to inhabit non-Christian countries - is your god a racist or something?

First, I highly doubt the majority of Christians are white.  Second, the gospel is going out to all the world.  Third, the gospel was first preached to the Jews, who are not white. 

Forth, the bible's picture of heaven is this:   

Rev 7:9 I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb.

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I'll leave this as disagreement - what I've seen in humans is that they're more of a clean slate than having a nature inclined one way or the other.

A little bit of sin is still sin.  You can't get a little bit pregnant.

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Yes, the fear has to do with punishment, punishment for not giving in to self serving demands - he demands worship, which only serves him. If the standards were a bit less self-serving it might be another matter altogether.

He died for me, therefore I give my life to him. 

--- 

Last time I checked, it was Adam and Eve, two individuals, that went astray, yet your God blames the rest of us for it. The sins of the father do not pass unto the son, but your god seems to think they do.

So, now you're claiming to be without sin?

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Besides, if your God didn't wish us to stray, why did he give us temptation in the first place? Why did he put the one thing, the tree with the special fruit, within their reach? If he was all knowing and wise, surely he would have known that the devil would come and tempt Adam and Eve into eating the fruit and straying from him! So then, why did he not take that the simple precaution of not putting the tree there?

maybe he didn't want robots as companions

---

And once again, why does an all powerful being feel the need to be the center of attention? He's all powerful for crying out loud! You'd think he wouldn't need his ego stroked. You'd also think, being all powerful and all, he could give us a guiding hand without having to have us worship him, wouldn't you?

And what would you have us worship?  Would you rather we worship creation, instead of the Creator?

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Last time I checked, my parents don't demand that I worship them. My parents were quite reasonable about what was and wasn't acceptable to them, and quite reasonable about what the consequences were.

I am glad your parents didn't have you worship them, for they are not worthy to be worshipped.  But, hopefully, your parents laid out some basic rules so that you wouldn't harm yourself.  I hope when you asked for forgiveness, they forgave you totally and didn’t place you on probation.

And I hope they didn’t give you any rules they weren’t willing to back up with punishment.  Because if they did, they did you a disservice in that area, for they taught you there was no consequence for disobedience.

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As a side note, I think a 'karma' system is the most reasonable kind

If karma is the cat's meow, then why are you still searching?

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I disagree. Your source for this notion that nobody is good except god comes from the Bible, which once again, is not a proven tome.

Then find me any functional person that has never told a lie.

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Besides, if he was truly a wise and understanding being wouldn't he be satisfied with us attempting to resist our supposed sinful nature instead of giving into it, even if that didn't involve worship? He knows we're not perfect, after all, but striving to be good should be rewarded whether or not one worships the correct man in the sky, should it not? Why should, say, a Hindu or a Buddhist who dedicates his life to helping his fellow man at great sacrifice to himself be sent to eternal torment simply for not being a Christian?

The only sacrifice acceptable to God is a perfect sacrifice.  And he provided it himself and offers it as a free gift.  You're basically asking to crash God's party without being willing to accept a free inventation.

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He's demanding worship - obviously he doesn't have that, and clearly he wants it. He didn't make a selfless sacrifice if he's making a demand in exchange for the fruits of that sacrifice.

And why doesn't he have the right to demand worship?!

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And no, he didn't give his life - if he's an undying, immortal being so he can't die, period.  Perhaps give the appearance of death, but if he's truly eternal a false death is not a real sacrifice.

Well, since we also have immortal souls, you could say that for anyone who is now dead.  You could say those who have died simply have the appearance of death.

But whatever death is, he experienced it as a man.  He came down and experienced flesh firsthand.  He faced every temptation, he was mocked and shamed, he was unjustily accused, and went through a horrible public execution.

If you think his dying for our penalty wasn't enough, then what else would you have God give in exchange for your soul? 

[John Dibble]

I can test the spirits - the spirit that acknowledges Jesus is from God.

And how do you know that? You're making the assumption that Jesus isn't a prophet of one of the demon religions - if Christianity is one of the false religions, then asking if the spirit ackowledges a demon prophet isn't exactly an adequate test, now is it?

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Rom 9:22-24 "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called?"[/quote]

So, in other words, your god doesn't love them, he'll just abandon them to be deceived when he has the power to show them the truth.

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First, I highly doubt the majority of Christians are white.  Second, the gospel is going out to all the world.  Third, the gospel was first preached to the Jews, who are not white.[/quote]

That was a joke, hence the smiley.

A little bit of sin is still sin.  You can't get a little bit pregnant.

A baby is born with no sin. As I said, clean slate.

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He died for me, therefore I give my life to him.[/quote]

The way I see it, he died to get you to worship him, not for you. It wasn't a selfless act.

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No, I'm claiming that I shouldn't be held accountable for the sins of others.

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Then why not offer the fruit freely? Why go through an elaborate scheme and call it a sin when it would be what he wanted?

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Why should we have to worship anything? All I'm asking is why an all powerful being would feel the need to be worshipped - if I had that much power, I certainly wouldn't care if a bunch of lower beings wanted to worship me or not. Of all the things I could judge them on, that would seem to be a rather petty and inconsequential thing.

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Of course they gave me rules - I said they did. However I wasn't talking about the presence of rules, I was talking about the rules being reasonable. Your god demands worship, and I can see no logical reason for that demand, and therefore I find it to be an unreasonable rule.

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If karma is the cat's meow, then why are you still searching?[/quote]

I said a karma type system is how I would like it to be and would be reasonable, as it rewards and punishes accordingly to the weight of your sins and sacrifices, not that it is the system in place. I honestly have no clue what, if any, kind of system is in place. I continue to search because I have a mind that desires to seek the truth. Currently, I lack enough evidence to draw conclusions on the truth of spiritual matters, so I seek evidence in order to be able to draw well reasoned conclusions.

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Then find me any functional person that has never told a lie.[/quote]

Lying is neither inherently good or inherently evil - it is a tool like any other and can be used for both. If you lie to trick a murderer in order to save a life, it's good. If you lie to steal from someone, it's bad. But this is besides the point - you hold to the notion that anyone who has done any act of evil is not capable of being a good person. I disagree with this idea. People aren't perfect, but that doesn't mean they can't be good.

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The only sacrifice acceptable to God is a perfect sacrifice. And he provided it himself and offers it as a free gift. You're basically asking to crash God's party without being willing to accept a free inventation.[/quote]

How can it be a free gift if you must make a sacrifice to pay for the gift? That's a blatant contradiction.

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I pose the opposite question - why does he have the right to demand worship? Seems to me he would have no need for human worship if he's indeed all powerful.

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Mortal death isn't quite the same when you can simply bring yourself back to life, now is it? For us, mortal death is permanent, irreversible. For the being you describe, it is fleeting and can be taken back, as displayed by the supposed ressurection - hardly a sacrifice.

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All I ask is that he not make outrageous demands and use his power in a reasonable manner. An all powerful being has no need for worship that I can tell, so it seems rather unreasonable and tyrannical that he demands it on punishment of eternal torment. Heck, I don't even require he bring non-worshippers to heaven - an Earth-like afterlife that isn't a heavenly paradise but isn't hell either would be fine with me.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=33859.msg765796;topicseen#msg765796

Thanks for sharing! I guess I've learned what I wished from you.

So, have you determined a motive, yet?

[nlm]

Hahaha

No jmfcst - a small internet chat doesn't make me feel like I know you well enough to even come close to such a thing.

But again, thank you for sharing and being a good sport. Seeing various aspects of the human condition and hearing the stories that form the perspectives that lead to those conditions is almost always of some interest to me.