Day 8: Armenia

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

http://cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/am.html

Discuss.

[Bacon King]

There's an enclave of Armenia in Azerbaijan and two enclaves of Azerbaijan in Armenia- not to mention that Armenia also seperates the main part of Azerbaijan from that smaller part in the southeast. Odd borders.

Edit: After looking at the CIA entry: Interesting to note that it was the first nation to adopt Christianity.

[afleitch]

The nation suffered horribly in the 1920's when it tried and failed to escape the Russian yolk and a mass genocide was inflicted on it's people that the perpetrator, Turkey fails to comprehend even today. It's a sturdy little nation that has my respect.

[phk]

Theres a large Armenian community in Fresno.

[Blerpiez]

The nation suffered horribly in the 1920's when it tried and failed to escape the Russian yolk and a mass genocide was inflicted on it's people that the perpetrator, Turkey fails to comprehend even today. It's a sturdy little nation that has my respect.

A teacher and student at my school are suing the state department of education so they can teach both sides of this issue in class.  They say they want freedom of opinion in class, which most people agree with, but I can't see how to teach this as anything but genocide (or whether any other teachers would, and what will stop this particular teacher).  They claim historical experts dispute the classification of this as a genocide

[afleitch]

The nation suffered horribly in the 1920's when it tried and failed to escape the Russian yolk and a mass genocide was inflicted on it's people that the perpetrator, Turkey fails to comprehend even today. It's a sturdy little nation that has my respect.

A teacher and student at my school are suing the state department of education so they can teach both sides of this issue in class.  They say they want freedom of opinion in class, which most people agree with, but I can't see how to teach this as anything but genocide (or whether any other teachers would, and what will stop this particular teacher).  They claim historical experts dispute the classification of this as a genocide

Genocide is difficult to determine; the Holocaust is seen as the 'benchmark' and people are often unwilling to attribute the term genocide to 'historical' events as some may do so for political reasons. For example when a few hundred people die in one single act people call it 'genocide' but it is more properly titled 'massacre.' But the systematic killing of over million people of one culture in my book qualifies as genocide

[Bono]

Freedom fighters.

[WMS]

The nation suffered horribly in the 1920's when it tried and failed to escape the Russian yolk and a mass genocide was inflicted on it's people that the perpetrator, Turkey fails to comprehend even today. It's a sturdy little nation that has my respect.

1910's. 1915 in particular. And it was the fascistic Young Turk government that committed genocide.

[muon2]

The nation suffered horribly in the 1920's when it tried and failed to escape the Russian yolk and a mass genocide was inflicted on it's people that the perpetrator, Turkey fails to comprehend even today. It's a sturdy little nation that has my respect.

1910's. 1915 in particular. And it was the fascistic Young Turk government that committed genocide.

I suspect that it will be seen as the initial event in the century of genocidal warfare.

[Beet]

I'm afraid as the region becomes more prosperous more young Armenians are going to be moving to Azerbaijan, where the economy is booming, or Russia, as second step, or the E.U., only a rare lucky few.

[ag]

I'm afraid as the region becomes more prosperous more young Armenians are going to be moving to Azerbaijan, where the economy is booming, or Russia, as second step, or the E.U., only a rare lucky few.

Why aren't Syrians moving to the much more prosperous Israel? Ah, there is a war between them, ain't there one there?

Young Armenians are not going to be moving to Azerbaijan until and unless the war between the two is over (and a few decades after that).  With very few exceptions, the only Armenian who can spend even 15 minutes in Azerbaijan is a dead Armenian (and vice versae), and even then he can't count on being unmolested. To the best of my knowledge, in the last 15 years almost nobody has crossed the front line alive (except, may be, in some prisoner exchanges) - and the entire frontier is a front line in a very shaky armistice.  Azerbaijan used to have a large ethnic Armenian population - none of it is still there. Armenians born in Azeri capital of Baku (which used to have a huge Armenian community) have it written in their Armenian passports: "Place of Birth: Baku, Republic of Armenia" (sic! I've seen such passports myself).

The two countries have fought a bloody war for the Armenian-populated but Azeri-controlled (in the Soviet times) region of Nagorny Karabagh (Artsakh, in Armenian). Armenia won, and it (or, strictly speaking, Armenian-backed Republic of Nagorny Karabagh) still controls not only most of Karabagh, but also a large chunk of Azerbaijan proper, having won it on the battlefield. This area is still depopulated, while Armenia holds it as a chip to negotiate for Azeri recognition of Karabagh's independence.  Azerbaijan still blockades Armenia in every conceivable way, making it nearly impossible to get into Armenia except by air (due to Georgia's various civil wars, the only existing rail routs to Georgia go through Azerbaijan, and Armenians - or even goods destined for Armenia - can't take those). 

The war and the blocade are the main reasons Armenia is so poor and heavily militarized. It is also the reason why Armenia is Russia's (and Iran's) main ally in the region: being surrounded by sworn enemies (Azerbaijan and Turkey) and fairly cold neighbours (Georgia), it gets support wherever it can.

Of course, a lot of Armenians have moved to Moscow and the rest of Russia - which, by the way, have also been the case in Soviet times. However, given Russia's attitude to the "blacks from the Caucasus", their life is not all roses there as well (most Russians equally hate Armenians and Azeri's, as well as anybody else they consider "black"). Given the large Armenian diaspora all over the world, a lot of them move on (hey, I believe, Armenian is one of the most common first languages of students in LA pubilc school system). 

[ag]

The present-day Armenia is just a small periferal area of what Armenians consider their country (the part that before WWI was within Russian empire, minus the Kars province that Turkey got from Russia after the war).  This, of course, is the area that was untouched by the genocide, though ancestors of many residents have fled from Turkish-controlled part.

Armenians have a daily reminder of their losses. The national symbol is mount Ararat of biblical fame. It can be seen from nearly every point in the nation's capital, Yerevan, which is located in the Ararat valley. Yet, though seemingly close, the mountain is accross the frontier, in Turkey.  Except for the traditional religious seat of Echmiadzin (where the head of the Armenian Gregorian church Catholicos of All Armenians Karekin II has his court), most of the present-day Armenia had been a backwater in Armenian history, the country being an accidental remnant of a formerly large state (the Greater Armenia once controlled the Eastern third of what is now Turkey).

Only a minority of the world's Armenians lives in the country. Most of those who fled Turkey settled around the world (in Europe - mainly, in France; in the U.S. - there are large communities in LA, as well as in Boston and New York metro areas; and elsewhere - if you search, you'll find Armenian communities throughout Europe, Middle East, Latin America, etc.). There is a remnant population in Turkey proper (though, mainly, in Istambul, rather than in historically Armenian lands around lake Van); in fact, it is the largest Christian community in Turkey, with their own Patriarch. There is a large Armenian population in Lebanon - the remnant of the Medeival state of Lesser Armenia on the Mediterranian (in fact, the second most important religious see of the Armenian church is there). There is a sizeable community in Israel and Palestine (in fact, primarily in Jerusalem, where one of the four historic quarters of the Old City is Armenian). Armenians also have a large diaspora in the former USSR, mainly in Russia.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Amazing that Armenia was able to beat Azerbaijan being less than half its size. But I guess you end up being a tough people after being kicked around by all your neighbors for the past 1700 years. As the first nation to adopt Christianity, they're also the one that suffered most for it.

What about the Armenian enclave in Azerbaijan and the two Azerbaiji ones in Armenia though? How are those treated with such tension? Plus the Azerbaiji exclave that Armenia seperates, what's the deal there?

Interestingly, both countries have small contingents in Iraq.

[minionofmidas]

The present-day Armenia is just a small periferal area of what Armenians consider their country (the part that before WWI was within Russian empire, minus the Kars province that Turkey got from Russia after the war).  This, of course, is the area that was untouched by the genocide, though ancestors of many residents have fled from Turkish-controlled part.

Armenians have a daily reminder of their losses. The national symbol is mount Ararat of biblical fame. It can be seen from nearly every point in the nation's capital, Yerevan, which is located in the Ararat valley. Yet, though seemingly close, the mountain is accross the frontier, in Turkey.  Except for the traditional religious seat of Echmiadzin (where the head of the Armenian Gregorian church Catholicos of All Armenians Karekin II has his court), most of the present-day Armenia had been a backwater in Armenian history, the country being an accidental remnant of a formerly large state (the Greater Armenia once controlled the Eastern third of what is now Turkey).

Although, to be fair, Armenians never made up a majority of the population in many parts of historical Armenia.

[ag]

The present-day Armenia is just a small periferal area of what Armenians consider their country (the part that before WWI was within Russian empire, minus the Kars province that Turkey got from Russia after the war).  This, of course, is the area that was untouched by the genocide, though ancestors of many residents have fled from Turkish-controlled part.

Armenians have a daily reminder of their losses. The national symbol is mount Ararat of biblical fame. It can be seen from nearly every point in the nation's capital, Yerevan, which is located in the Ararat valley. Yet, though seemingly close, the mountain is accross the frontier, in Turkey.  Except for the traditional religious seat of Echmiadzin (where the head of the Armenian Gregorian church Catholicos of All Armenians Karekin II has his court), most of the present-day Armenia had been a backwater in Armenian history, the country being an accidental remnant of a formerly large state (the Greater Armenia once controlled the Eastern third of what is now Turkey).

Although, to be fair, Armenians never made up a majority of the population in many parts of historical Armenia.

Depends on whom you are talking to and the period you are talking about (the heyday of Armenia was long passed by the time of the genocide). In any case, they, likely, were a majority around mount Ararat and lake Van.

[minionofmidas]

Oh yes, I didn't deny that. In Southern historical Armenia though, there were pockets of Armenians, pockets of Turks, pockets of Kurds, pockets of Arabs, pockets of Greeks ... and there still are pockets of Turks and pockets of Kurds in the area...

[WMS]

The nation suffered horribly in the 1920's when it tried and failed to escape the Russian yolk and a mass genocide was inflicted on it's people that the perpetrator, Turkey fails to comprehend even today. It's a sturdy little nation that has my respect.

1910's. 1915 in particular. And it was the fascistic Young Turk government that committed genocide.

I suspect that it will be seen as the initial event in the century of genocidal warfare.

Yeah, that sounds about right. Although the Belgians and Germans had already committed genocide in Africa by that point...

[minionofmidas]

Ah, but the Belgians, that was 19th century.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Ahead of the curve, eh?

[WMS]

Ah, but the Belgians, that was 19th century.

Spilling into the 20th, although the worst of it was in the 19th century. I've read King Leopold's Ghost on this one.