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« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2006, 06:17:22 pm »
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I would like to start discussion on which candidates deserve the ILP endorsement.

Mideast
In the Mideast, I belief the prudent choice for our endorsement is our former colleague Emsworth. While Masterjedi is a fine, respectable and creditable senator, Emsworth's commitment to social liberalism is in touch with core ILP principles. He would be a deserved candidate for our endorsement.

Pacific
The population problems faced by the Pacific raise an interesting possibility, in that Jesus has a strong chance of winning there. Having for so long contested elections, maybe it's time to see if he can make a substantive contribution to the legislative process.

More later...


I do believe that my views match those of the ILP quite closely, and that it would be in the best interest of the ILP to endorse me.

I may make the occasional odd comment, but I have proven that I can take this website seriously and promise to make a great Senator.
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« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2006, 11:37:02 pm »
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Fellow delegates, good evening,

First of all, let me apologise for my tardiness in addressing you. Everytime I tried to get around to taddressing you, something somehow got in the way.

This election season seems to be proving that Atlasian democracy is alive and well, and in the case of the Southeast Senate race, so much so that there will probably be more candidates than other voters. This is a delight to see, as well as the fact that there are no uncontested races and we have two Independent Liberal candidates.

In our democracy, the voice of individual citizens can be so critical regarding many issues, especially those devolved to the Regional level. Each and every citizen has a role to play in deciding whether their Region in allowing euthanasia, abortion, recreational marijuana use and so much more. Increasingly the Regions play a role in economic affairs as well, having the authority to set a minimum wage.

I urge each and every one of our members to engage in these debates, for whilst myself as a Senator, Jas and TCash as Governors and Ebowed as the Vice-President can do so much from our elective offices to build an Independent Liberal inheritance for our children, it is only you, the People, who can build a truly Independent Liberal Revolution.

As is customary, I will now deliver to you my advise on the coming elections, and who I believe the Independent Liberal Party should endorse. I will be leaving the Presidential race until a later speech.

In the Mideast we are greeted by two excellent candidates in Emsworth and MasterJedi. No doubt, whoever is elected here will represent his constituents superbly and both would be fine additions to the Senate. Ultimately, we must however try to endorse only one of them.

I agree with my fellow Party leaders, TCash and Jas, that the candidate most committed to ILP principles is Emsworth. Whilst I have concerns that his principles of federalism may be too strong, it is clear that he is a commited social liberal and has a brilliant mind for forum affairs.

In the Pacific, we are again greeted by two qualified candidates, Jesus and WMS. WMS has only just enterred the race, and thus has not really had time to set out his stall, so I must unfortunately judge his principles by my experiences of him in the past rather than any present campaigning.

WMS is undoubtedly a fine citizen and would once again make a fine Senator. Jesus is the epitomy of the "frequent" candidate, running, often with no hope of victory. Jesus is in my opinion the closest of the candidates to our platform, and therefore I recommend him for our endorsement. He has proven in recent months through his work in the Pacific that he has a good head on his soldiers, and undoubtedly he would be an ally of the party in the Senate.

In the Northeast, we have before us a different type of race. In their day, Colin and Flyers used to be fine candidates and would have made fine Senators, but alas, I fear their hearts are not in it anymore. There has been little campaign activity, and neither are particularly active in Regional democracy. I hope one of these candidates can prove me wrong in the closing days of the campaign, but for this fact, I must convey to you that I believe no endorsement should be issued.

In the Midwest, the voters really do have a difficult choice in front of them. Ernest, Lewis Trondheim and Yates would all make excellent Senators, as Ernest already is in filling in the remainder of DanielX's term. Previously I voted to endorse Ernest in the special election in what as incredibly difficult decision for me.

The entry of Yates into the race at the least should make things easier for us as a party, though the voters will undoubtedly still have much to think about. Yates, being a party member, is the natural choice for our endorsement and I recommend him to you for it.

Next we have the Southeast Governorship (because I want to save the torture for last). Some members of this Party have recommended Cosmo Kramer for our endorsement.

I must strongly and in no uncertain terms recommend against endorsing him. 

A candidate without a socailly liberal bone in his body should not be endorsed by this party. Whilst I recognise that the candidate may have some strategy once he assumes office, this is not and should not be the sole qualifier for our endorsement. His opponent, Ron Dubya, is not exactly the most appetising of alternatives either. He has presided over a relatively inactive term as Secretary of Defense, nor has he attempted to bring any sort of vision to his post. Accordingly I must recommend that no endorsement be issued.

The Southeast Senate race is by far the most competitive, with  5 candidates now running. I had hoped to stand before you today to endorse Brandon W, but during the course of my typing, it appears he has dropped out in favour of the Southeast Lieutenant Governorship.

Of the remaining candidates, it is difficult to find any one candidate who one can safely say is both qualified to hold office and close to the ILP platform. Therefore I will issue no advice, though I believe that a candidate should be endorsed by the party.

I wish you as delegates, and the voters-at-large, the best of luck in making the choices that lay ahead of you.
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2006, 01:19:52 am »
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For Mideast Senate, Emsworth has shown to be a highly impressive candidate in the ongoing debate; his responses are well-thought-out and not choppy or poorly written.  Of course, he is also a committed social libertarian and has a brilliant legal mind, and would be a weclome addition to the Senate.

I believe that we should endorse Jesus for Pacific Senate, if only because I think it's upsetting that various parties are attempting to take advantage of a low-key race by dragging respected members out of inactivity to run.  While I like WMS, he has admittedly decreased his activity in Atlasia since ending his service as Secretary of State, and I question what exactly it was that prompted him to run.  This is not meant with any disrespect whatsoever, but merely advice to the convention's delegates that we must be cautious in thinking about how an inactive candidate may translate into an inactive Senator.

The Midwest has three excellent candidates.  I recommend an endorsement of Yates.  Although he is a relative newcomer to Atlasia, he has proven himself to be intelligent and committed to legal studies.  In the Northeast, neither of the candidates appear to be particularly active and, while I like both personally, I would recommend that the party gives no endorsement unless the tone of the campaign takes on a sharp change.

In the Southeast, there are several good candidates.  I have personally endorsed Brandon H for this seat, as I think he would be a committed, friendly, and intelligent Senator.  He is also much more conservative than I or the membership of this party, but shares several socially libertarian views that the Southeast Region has been lacking in its representation in the past few months.  Regardless, I realize that none of the candidates fit perfectly with the ideology of this party, which is amusing considering the number of candidates.  htmldon has been a consistent opponent of this party and has made false accusations about our ideological lean and membership; he is unsuitable for this endorsement and I urge no party members to vote for him.  Bacon King is a fine person and I voted for him for Lieutenant Governor last December, and will likely give him my second preference.  He, too, would be a committed social libertarian in the Senate.  Jake has used the Senate as his own chamber to make silly political moves that degrade the honor and integrity of the Senate, and has proven himself to be an unfit Senator who does not deserve re-election.  Finally, there is josh22, who means well, but questions regarding his committment and ideological consistency must be raised.

There are also two regional races occuring in the Southeast on election weekend.  While Cosmo Kramer has sound economically liberal views that fit in with this party, there are some severe questions regarding his social beliefs that are relevant and notable.  That said, I personally support Dubya for this seat, but I do not believe that he is in line with the party's ideology either, and will likely abstain on this endorsement.

For Lieutenant Governor, I believe we should endorse party member Brandon W.  In his short-lived Senate campaign he has proven himself to be a competent and worthy center-left candidate.  I urge the party to endorse him.

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« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2006, 08:58:07 am »
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For Lieutenant Governor, I believe we should endorse party member Brandon W.† In his short-lived Senate campaign he has proven himself to be a competent and worthy center-left candidate.† I urge the party to endorse him.


He hadn't announced for this race when I commented before, so I'd like to jump in and concur. I had a few concerns about his being ready for the senate, but I think he'll make a great Lt. Gov with more to follow. Ben Meyers is a fine guy, but has anybody seen him?
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« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2006, 10:01:17 am »
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Voting is now open for endorsements regarding Senate and Regional elections. The booth can be accessed here. Voting shall close in 72 hours.

Voting on the Presidential endorsement shall begin on Monday.
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« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2006, 10:53:43 am »
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Well I've got the machinations of the Bell wing working against me.  I plead to the voters ignore their maliciousness and vote for a real candidate of progress.
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« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2006, 10:55:26 am »
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I believe that we should endorse Jesus for Pacific Senate, if only because I think it's upsetting that various parties are attempting to take advantage of a low-key race by dragging respected members out of inactivity to run.  While I like WMS, he has admittedly decreased his activity in Atlasia since ending his service as Secretary of State, and I question what exactly it was that prompted him to run.  This is not meant with any disrespect whatsoever, but merely advice to the convention's delegates that we must be cautious in thinking about how an inactive candidate may translate into an inactive Senator.

The Midwest has three excellent candidates.  I recommend an endorsement of Yates.  Although he is a relative newcomer to Atlasia, he has proven himself to be intelligent and committed to legal studies.

Yates hasn't been active either until recently -so why the double standard?
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« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2006, 03:41:40 pm »
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I believe that we should endorse Jesus for Pacific Senate, if only because I think it's upsetting that various parties are attempting to take advantage of a low-key race by dragging respected members out of inactivity to run.† While I like WMS, he has admittedly decreased his activity in Atlasia since ending his service as Secretary of State, and I question what exactly it was that prompted him to run.† This is not meant with any disrespect whatsoever, but merely advice to the convention's delegates that we must be cautious in thinking about how an inactive candidate may translate into an inactive Senator.

The Midwest has three excellent candidates.† I recommend an endorsement of Yates.† Although he is a relative newcomer to Atlasia, he has proven himself to be intelligent and committed to legal studies.

Yates hasn't been active either until recently -so why the double standard?

Yates was previously highly active until he had a family emergency/tragedy, and has since returned.† WMS just gradually slipped away from the forum, particularly the fantasy politics section.† I don't believe that the two situations are entirely comparable.† Don't get me wrong; I like WMS, but it just seems that he was hurriedly asked to run to take advantage of a low-key race.† It reflects poorly on everyone involved, is all.
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« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2006, 04:20:23 pm »
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I believe that we should endorse Jesus for Pacific Senate, if only because I think it's upsetting that various parties are attempting to take advantage of a low-key race by dragging respected members out of inactivity to run.† While I like WMS, he has admittedly decreased his activity in Atlasia since ending his service as Secretary of State, and I question what exactly it was that prompted him to run.† This is not meant with any disrespect whatsoever, but merely advice to the convention's delegates that we must be cautious in thinking about how an inactive candidate may translate into an inactive Senator.

The Midwest has three excellent candidates.† I recommend an endorsement of Yates.† Although he is a relative newcomer to Atlasia, he has proven himself to be intelligent and committed to legal studies.

Yates hasn't been active either until recently -so why the double standard?

Yates was previously highly active until he had a family emergency/tragedy, and has since returned.† WMS just gradually slipped away from the forum, particularly the fantasy politics section.† I don't believe that the two situations are entirely comparable.† Don't get me wrong; I like WMS, but it just seems that he was hurriedly asked to run to take advantage of a low-key race.† It reflects poorly on everyone involved, is all.

Duty calls, Ebowed. I reduced my activity, no doubt about it, but I didn't abandon the Forum altogether. I had thought about this race for some weeks before I announced, but when I realized there was going to be no competition for Jesus, the inquiries of others (pretty much from my own party as you might expect) became much more salient.

But thanks for the kind words, even if you aren't going to endorse me. Wink
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« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2006, 01:55:57 pm »
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I thank Governor Jas for allowing me to address the Convention this weekend before voting on endorsements begins.  As with my ACA Address, I have no intention of running down point-by-point where I agree with the ILP platform on specific issues.  That is far too dry, and usually unpersuasive.  Instead, I'm going to focus on a broad question of vision, and try and explain why my vision most coincides with the vision of the ILP.

As I understand it, this party is at its core founded on social liberalism fused with the economic ideas of people like Gordon Brown and Robert Rubin.  Essentially, the economic philosophy of Brown and Rubin was that globalization is occurring, that it has real consequences for people, and that the best way to deal with this change in the world economy is not to stand athwart history and yell stop and not to try and close the economy off with high tariffs.  The best way to deal with the emerging global economy is to heartily engage in it.

Freer trade was a cornerstone of their philosophy, so was participation in international institutions like the World Trade Organization.  In their view, the best way to balance the budget was with a progressive income tax and by removing wasteful spending instead of cutting vital programs.

The result was impressive, and the economies of both the US and Britain grew.

This set of ideas is at the core of my own economic philosophy, these are result-oriented values that I share with the ILP, itís a direction I want to move the country in, and there is a stark contrast between myself and my opponent on whether participating actively in the world economy and the global community is wise.

For example, I support trade agreements like CAFTA, NAFTA, and our participation in the WTO.  My opponent does not support CAFTA, NAFTA, or the WTO.  He does not agree with me that free trade in the manner we have gone about it in  the last 15 years is to our benefit, and this puts his vision at odds with the Brown-Rubin-Clinton-Blair philosophy.  This is not something he believes in half-heartedly, its something he has worked for as a cornerstone of his political career, it could be reasonably argued that he has spent more effort working against internationalism than on any other single subject save for his leading the movement opposed to abortion rights.  Opposition to free trade and to international institutions are a defining part of the Ebowed foreign policy.

Beyond free trade, we also disagree on the United Nations and other international institutions and treaties.  I support Atlasia's continued participation in the UN.  In my campaign speeches, I've said repeatedly that the first resort when dealing with Iran is the UN Security Council.  My opponent does not share my views.  He opposes Atlasian participation in the United Nations, wants to eject the UN headquarters from New York City, wants to end Atlasian participation in UN peacekeeping around the world, wants to end diplomatic immunity to UN Ambassadors within Atlasian territory, opposes our participation in the World Health Organization, and would end Atlasian subscription to the Declaration on Human Rights.  There is a strong philosophical divide between my opponent and me, and ILP members should consider that divide when voting.  I am an internationalist who wants to engage in open trade with other free nations and I want to participate in international institutions, Ebowed doesn't believe in free trade or international institutions and could be loosely described as an isolationist and not an internationalist.

When it comes to how to structure a budget, too, there is a sharp distinction.  When it came time to pass a budget in the Pacific, I wrote out a unified tax code based on a simple, progressive income tax.  Ebowed is on record saying that he supports a flat tax or consumption tax.  Again, there is a fundamental disagreement between Ebowed and I on economics, and since these budget questions dominate economic policy in Atlasia, its very important that everyone here at least consider these broad differences when deciding who to vote for.  Robert Rubin and Gordon Brown and Bill Clinton and all the others whose philosophy was a basis for the ILP implemented the kind of tax system I implemented in the Pacific, and worked hard to block the kinds of flat tax and consumption tax proposals that were floated by their opponents from time to time.

It's simply a difference in philosophy.  I think my vision of this country's place in the world is more in tune with the ILP vision than my opponent's vision is, and there is a substantive difference between the direction I want to go and the direction my opponent wants to go.  I certainly hope members of the ILP will consider these important distinctions between my opponent and I when going to vote in the endorsement booth and in the general election, and that it will stay true to its founding principles.  When my running mate, True Democrat, sat down with Peter Bell and Siege40 and founded this party, these were the principles they founded the party on: Internationalism and pragmatism.  And these are the principles I hope will continue to animate this party in February and beyond.

Thank you for having me here, and may Dave Bless Atlasia.
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« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2006, 04:38:07 pm »
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Fellow delegates and members of this party,

I will speak to you this afternoon in the hope that I can recieve my party's endorsement for President.† But before I do that, I wish to point out some of the problems in my opponent's speech, as I feel they are misleading and, in some cases, inaccurate.† Before I begin, however, I wish to thank Yates for his excellent speech in my favor; it is truly appreciated.

First of all, my opponent criticizes the fact that I have fought against free trade throughout my career in the Senate.† However, it was my job to protect the interests of the people I was representing in the Senate, and polls around that time showed that anywhere from 65% to 80% of the Southeast and District 4 (which were, at the time, nearly identical) opposed CAFTA.† I agreed with this view of my constituents - namely, that we were exploiting developing countries as a hand-out to large businesses who needed to cut costs on outsourcing.† Supporters of this agreement were candid in their admittance that the reason to support it was simple - "cheap labor."† Protecting the interests of both Atlasian workers and keeping a high standard of laws that protect workers is important and cannot be overlooked solely because some neoconservatives are worried that not saying Yes to the agreement will be a bad step backwards against their globalization vision.

Then, my opponent states that I am opposed to international organizations and treaties.† First of all, I am not opposed to international treaties at all - I support treaties that would ban the use of chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons.† For that matter, I'm not opposed to international organizations either!† I have, in the past, stated my opposition to Atlasian involvement in the United Nations and introduced a bill (for a constituent who requested it) in the Senate that would take action.† My opponent forgot to point out something crucial however - I also withdrew that bill.† Indeed, it did not have enough votes to pass, and the arguments against the withdrawal bill were strong; I felt it was wrong to waste the Senate's time on the matter.† Where he got from this that I oppose all international organizations I don't know.

"When it comes to how to structure a budget, too, there is a sharp distinction."† Indeed, there is.† My opponent has gone on record stating that he supports a bill to abolish public housing - on the other hand, I vetoed said bill as Acting President.† I am not supportive of random budget cuts to acheive a balanced budget; I took this into concern when I reconsidered my position on the balanced budget amendment, voting "Yea" to repeal it the second time that it went through the Senate.† My opponent also mentions that I am supportive of a consumption and/or flat tax - however, this is not entirely true.† I am open to ideas and have considered the benefits of a state (not national) flat tax in real life politics.† A distinction must be made between real life and Atlasian politics, however, where I have stated my support of a progressive taxation system for almost all of my entire stay here in Atlasia.

Finally, it was stated that this party was founded on the basis of internationalism.† I can find no evidence to support this claim; as far as I know, foreign policy has been a relatively distant concern to social and economic policy in this party for as long as I have been a member.

With these concerns addressed, I wish to outline why I am seeking the ILP endorsement and why I believe I will suit this party's interests.† First of all, I'm a member, and I wouldn't be in the party if I disagreed with large portions of the platform.† I did not join this party with political gain in mind, either, which is important.

The Presidential power of the veto has been mostly overlooked for much of the last year of Presidencies.† However, it should not be used sparingly if the interests of the Atlasian people are at stake.† Some people are content with bossing their Cabinets around while letting the Senate do what they want, and just hoping that it will vote in favor of their policy.† However, it is my view that one should not be afraid to use the veto in order to protect the country's well-being.† Particularly in these budget slash-and-cut times, we need to be careful that we aren't passing legislation that will drastically alter the status quo in favor of something much, much worse.† I will stand up to this legislation, while recognizing that we, over time, need to balance the budget, but also recognizing that immediately slashing the budget without considering the consequences would have drastic effects.

This is not to say that the executive branch should have poor relations with the Senate - I believe it is important that I, the Vice President, and the Cabinet can actively push the administrative agenda while listening to the Senate's concerns and finding suitable agreements.† In particular, the Vice President should be an active President of the Senate who is well-versed in the rules of the Senate, and in that regard I have chosen a running mate who I worked along side with as Senator for the ninth Senate session, former Senator and current SoFA Q.

Social policy is often overlooked in the federal executive branch, mainly because the regions have more control over these issues.† However, there are times when social policy is considered at the federal level, and my basic social policy is one of supporting gun rights, abolishing the death penalty, and the right to privacy so long as it doesn't harm anyone else.† I have made these concerns the cornerstone of my work as an active citizen in the Southeast, particularly as proposing a record number of anti-death penalty initiatives (even though many of them were unsuccessful) in the Southeast.

I am a common sense libertarian-leaning leftist on economics.† My essential beliefs can be summed up as follows:† while reduction in the size of government is desirable, it should not be the primary goal, and only pursued when it does not end necessary programs and economic intervention by the government.

As I stated earlier, I would not be a member of this party if I weren't essentially what the name states - an Independent Liberal - and I believe I'm the only candidate in this race that could be called one.† If you agree, I hope to see you casting your endorsement for Ebowed/Q at our voting booth; a Ebowed/Q victory will result in a continued, stronger presence of common sense policies at the federal level, mixed with a clean, efficient administration.† It's a combination you can't beat.

Thank you,
Vice President Ebowed
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« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2006, 10:16:52 pm »
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Announcement over the loud speaker:

Vice-Presidential Candidate True Democrat will be addressing the convention around Monday night, though that could change.
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« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2006, 09:05:56 pm »
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Ebowed,

Simply because the ILP was not founded on foreign policy does not mean foreign policy is not important to its members.  The Republican and Democratic parties were not founded to deal with foregin affairs, but their members certainly care about foregin affairs.

Further, how to deal with globalization is not merely a foregin policy.  It is a domestic policy as well.  Trade was a key component of US economic policy making in the Clinton years, and remains so today.  Trade may actually be the centerpiece of the Clitnon economic program after 1994.  Other foregin actions have had domestic consequences (and domestic causes).  When we bailed out Mexico after the Peso collapse in '94, and when we intervened in the '97 Asian Financial Crisis, this was a foreign policy, but it was also a domestic policy, because instability in these areas has an adverse affect on domestic conditions.  In fact, in a globalized world, there's not much left that can be compartmentalized as solely foreign.  For that matter, there's not much left that can be considered solely domestic.

Saying that I was talking about mostly foreign affairs takes, I think, an unjustifiably narrow view of international relations generally, and trade specifically.
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« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2006, 09:33:59 pm »
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I believe that we should endorse Jesus for Pacific Senate, if only because I think it's upsetting that various parties are attempting to take advantage of a low-key race by dragging respected members out of inactivity to run.† While I like WMS, he has admittedly decreased his activity in Atlasia since ending his service as Secretary of State, and I question what exactly it was that prompted him to run.† This is not meant with any disrespect whatsoever, but merely advice to the convention's delegates that we must be cautious in thinking about how an inactive candidate may translate into an inactive Senator.

The Midwest has three excellent candidates.† I recommend an endorsement of Yates.† Although he is a relative newcomer to Atlasia, he has proven himself to be intelligent and committed to legal studies.

Yates hasn't been active either until recently -so why the double standard?

Yates was previously highly active until he had a family emergency/tragedy, and has since returned.†

Thank you, Ebowed.  That is quite correct.  Had there been no disruption, and there is nothing more that I desire than for it to have not occurred, I would have remained fully active, as I was before and after it.
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« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2006, 09:38:29 pm »
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« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2006, 12:28:34 am »
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Ebowed,

Simply because the ILP was not founded on foreign policy does not mean foreign policy is not important to its members.

You stated that the party was founded on the principle of internationalism, and I was simply correcting that point.
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« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2006, 12:52:50 am »
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Ebowed,

Simply because the ILP was not founded on foreign policy does not mean foreign policy is not important to its members.

You stated that the party was founded on the principle of internationalism, and I was simply correcting that point.

Internationalism is a founding principle of the ILP, and internationalism remains embedded in the platform.  Simply because it was not founded as a party centered on foreign policy the way the FP was does not mean that it did not having guiding principles on foreign affairs when it was founded.
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« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2006, 01:24:41 am »
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I'm not disputing that the party is concerned with foreign policy - just that it has almost always been a lesser concern next to economic and particularly social issues.  To say that the party was "founded on" internationalism would mean that it was a major principle when the party was created, and I think it was more concerned with social liberalism and keeping corruption out of the party (keep in mind it was formed during AFDNC controversies).
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« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2006, 01:30:00 am »
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It seems like you're splitting hairs at this point.
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« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2006, 01:34:15 am »
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When my running mate, True Democrat, sat down with Peter Bell and Siege40 and founded this party, these were the principles they founded the party on: Internationalism and pragmatism.

This party was not founded on foreign policy; you rebutted by saying that internationalism can be part of domestic policy too.  Of course it can be, but then there's also the fact that this party's domestic policy had little to do with internationalism intentionally - the policy was formed from a progressive, socially liberal point of view.  So, again, I am simply rebutting your claim that this party was founded on internationalism, and by extension, foreign policy, which is what you are basing a lot of your campaign on.
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« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2006, 01:58:44 am »
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When my running mate, True Democrat, sat down with Peter Bell and Siege40 and founded this party, these were the principles they founded the party on: Internationalism and pragmatism.

This party was not founded on foreign policy; you rebutted by saying that internationalism can be part of domestic policy too.† Of course it can be, but then there's also the fact that this party's domestic policy had little to do with internationalism intentionally - the policy was formed from a progressive, socially liberal point of view.† So, again, I am simply rebutting your claim that this party was founded on internationalism, and by extension, foreign policy, which is what you are basing a lot of your campaign on.

You didn't read the whole quote, though.† I said internationalism and pragmatism.† Pragmatism of course refers to both foreign and domestic policy, so no I didn't say the party was founded on foreign policy at all.† I said it was founded on internationalism and pragmatism (at least with regards to foreign and domestic affairs).

And the party is intentionally internationalist, or internationalist ideas would not be in the platform, would they.

It is also important to note that simply because values other than internationalism (ie, social liberalism and economic pragmatism) are at the heart of the ILP vision, that does not preclude other values (ie, internationalism) from also being at the heart of the party.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 02:21:43 am by John Ford »Logged

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« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2006, 02:07:26 am »
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I didn't believe your claim that the party was founded on pragmatism to be incorrect, so there was no need for me to mention it in my section of the speech that was intended to rebut what I felt were inaccurate claims.

Internationalism is inherently a type of foreign policy- any domestic policy that has to be made because of it is simply a result of the foreign policy.† So, if the party was founded on the principle of internationalism, it was founded with foreign policy as a major concern, which it wasn't.† I never said there weren't any internationalist planks in the platform, only that it wasn't founded on it, just as it wasn't founded on gun rights, even though there's a section for it in the platform.
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« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2006, 02:20:24 am »
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I didn't believe your claim that the party was founded on pragmatism to be incorrect, so there was no need for me to mention it in my section of the speech that was intended to rebut what I felt were inaccurate claims.

Internationalism is inherently a type of foreign policy- any domestic policy that has to be made because of it is simply a result of the foreign policy.† So, if the party was founded on the principle of internationalism, it was founded with foreign policy as a major concern, which it wasn't.† I never said there weren't any internationalist planks in the platform, only that it wasn't founded on it, just as it wasn't founded on gun rights, even though there's a section for it in the platform.

Internationalism takes up more than a few sentences in the platform.† It is an idea more than a single position, and it is infused in every individual position the party takes on foreign policy.† So it is more than a single position like the gun issue.

I'm not sure you understand my point about globalists thinking foreign policy and domestic policy are connected.† It is not, as you suggested, that domestic policies would have to be adopted in order to conform to the international scene.† It is tht the international policies themselves have a direct impact on people's lives, and therefore engagement with foreign antions is critical to our domestic well being.† This, too, is a founding idea of the ILP, and a driving force behind those real life political figures whose work forms a basis for this party.

Lastly, the fact that certain values (ie, economic pragmatism or social liberalism) are at the heart of the party, this does not mean that other values (ie, internationalism) are not also at the heart of the party.
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« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2006, 02:36:22 am »
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Lastly, the fact that certain values (ie, economic pragmatism or social liberalism) are at the heart of the party, this does not mean that other values (ie, internationalism) are not also at the heart of the party.

You said that the party was founded on internationalism, not that it is just some value that the party holds.  I merely refuted this- it's still true no matter how much you post about the ideas behind internationalism.

The fact that foreign policy takes up the least amount of planks than any other category in the ILP platform is no small coincidence.  Founded on internationalism?  Sounds fishy.

http://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/Independent_Liberal_Party_Platform#Foreign_Affairs_Issues

There's also one plank on "Free Trade," and only two of the three foreign policy planks are internationalist, for a total of three internationalist planks.  Are you going to stop claiming that the party was founded on internationalism now, especially since you've changed your tune to "well, the party has other values and internationalism is one of them", which I never argued against?  I know more than a little bit about the party's platform, seeing as I'm a member of the party, so let's not pretend that the party is just dripping with internationalist sentiment.
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« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2006, 02:45:42 am »
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You'll notice in that link that trade is listed under economic policy, not foreign.  A clear indication that the founders of the ILP believed there cinergy between foreign and domestic policy.  If you wish to continue blieving that the ILP is value free on international issues, you are entitled to believe that.  But it's patently false.

I also never said internationalism was the only founding principle of the party, and the quotes you yourself procided show that quite clearly.  I never took the position that the ILP was founded solely on international issues.  Here is how I actually described the ILP founding:

As I understand it, this party is at its core founded on social liberalism fused with the economic ideas of people like Gordon Brown and Robert Rubin.† Essentially, the economic philosophy of Brown and Rubin was that globalization is occurring, that it has real consequences for people, and that the best way to deal with this change in the world economy is not to stand athwart history and yell stop and not to try and close the economy off with high tariffs.† The best way to deal with the emerging global economy is to heartily engage in it.

You say it is silly that I said the party was founded on only internationalism.  Yet its obvious I never said any such thing.  I'd appreciate if in the future you did not put words on my mouth or inaccurately portray what I had said, and certainly don't put something in quotation marks that I never said, for goodness' sake.

And you should not claim your membership in the party granting you some esoteric knowledge about the party's founding principles.  My running mate is one of the three co-founders of the ILP!  We didn't just fall off a turnip truck a week ago and ask for an endorsement.
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