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Author Topic: Law & Order- US Vs UK  (Read 9782 times)
English
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« on: May 19, 2004, 04:53:25 pm »
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On this topic I support the US approach.

Justice in the UK is a laughing stock. Our courts support the criminals over the victims in virtually all cases. You are not allowed to protect your property OR your family. You cannot even use force to prevent unlawful access to your home. Whatsmore, if a criminal is injured trying to force access, on broken glass for instance, they can sue the home owner!!
UK justice stinks!
Personally I believe you should be able to use any force necessary to protect your home or family. The US has got it right.
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I live in the UK and regard myself as a socially liberal, economic centrist. I vote for the British Labour party and support the Canadian NDP and US Democratic parties.


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Dave from Michigan
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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2004, 05:01:33 pm »
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I've heard of cases here of crimminals suing over injuries thaey had during robberies but they tend to be rare.  Can you own a gun in the UK
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English
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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2004, 05:13:52 pm »
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In the US though, the criminal would probably get laughed out of court. In the UK however, the court invariably sides with the sc*mbag.
I've heard of cases were home-owners have been sued by burglars! Can you believe it?
You can own a gun in the UK, but it's not easy. You have to jump through hoops to get a licence. Of course the criminals have no problems getting them. I'm sure at the moment the criminals are better armed than the police!

As I said, the law & order situation in Britain is barmy.

1) The police here need to carry firearms.
2) Homeowners should be able to kill intruders if absolutely necessary. At the very least they should be able to disable them.
3) Courts should favour the victims NOT the criminals.
4) Parents should be allowed to defend their families by any means necessary.
5) Prisons should be exactly that, not 5 star hotels like some places.
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I live in the UK and regard myself as a socially liberal, economic centrist. I vote for the British Labour party and support the Canadian NDP and US Democratic parties.


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KEmperor
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2004, 05:23:23 pm »
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In the US though, the criminal would probably get laughed out of court. In the UK however, the court invariably sides with the sc*mbag.
I've heard of cases were home-owners have been sued by burglars! Can you believe it?
You can own a gun in the UK, but it's not easy. You have to jump through hoops to get a licence. Of course the criminals have no problems getting them. I'm sure at the moment the criminals are better armed than the police!

As I said, the law & order situation in Britain is barmy.

1) The police here need to carry firearms.
2) Homeowners should be able to kill intruders if absolutely necessary. At the very least they should be able to disable them.
3) Courts should favour the victims NOT the criminals.
4) Parents should be allowed to defend their families by any means necessary.
5) Prisons should be exactly that, not 5 star hotels like some places.

You sound A LOT like a Repubican now, you know?  Maybe you should switch that avatar to blue?
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Dave from Michigan
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2004, 05:28:26 pm »
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In the US though, the criminal would probably get laughed out of court. In the UK however, the court invariably sides with the sc*mbag.
I've heard of cases were home-owners have been sued by burglars! Can you believe it?
You can own a gun in the UK, but it's not easy. You have to jump through hoops to get a licence. Of course the criminals have no problems getting them. I'm sure at the moment the criminals are better armed than the police!

As I said, the law & order situation in Britain is barmy.

1) The police here need to carry firearms.
2) Homeowners should be able to kill intruders if absolutely necessary. At the very least they should be able to disable them.
3) Courts should favour the victims NOT the criminals.
4) Parents should be allowed to defend their families by any means necessary.
5) Prisons should be exactly that, not 5 star hotels like some places.


do any of the parties over there support changing any of this?
Do you have high crime over there
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English
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2004, 05:36:48 pm »
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Overall crime in the UK is perhaps 3 times higher than in the US. Homicide is much lower and rape I believe, but for everything else, including violence against the person the rate is very high. Petty crime & anti-social behavior is at calamitous proportions.

The Tories claim to be the party of law and order, but this rarely translates into action. They cut police numbers are against arming officers.

We need to at least double the number of police and all police should be armed with guns.
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I live in the UK and regard myself as a socially liberal, economic centrist. I vote for the British Labour party and support the Canadian NDP and US Democratic parties.


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Giant Saguaro
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2004, 10:14:17 pm »
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Wow, I didn't realize it was that out of control. I knew it was hard as hell to get a gun, but this sounds overall worse than I thought. Besides, if you can't use it, what's the bother of even owning a gun, if you have to surrender to whoever breaks in? And cops can't carry guns. Oh, wow. And I'm surprised Tories are okay with that - here, the gun business is mainly a right vs. left deal, and it's not this radical. They argue about background checks at gun shows, mostly. Sheesh! The right wing supporting taking guns off cops. I don't know as much about domestic policy with the UK parties, I've always assumed the anti gun business was Labor. Apparently not in the UK. Wasn't it Blair that signed in many of the gun bans?

See, here what will happen is that someone will assault a police officer, swing at him, beat on him, and as soon as he defends himself and puts the assailant down, the cop gets sued. A lot of it is racial, though. There was just a case not long ago in Ohio where a 400 pound black man jumped a cop at a gas station, beat the hell out of him at first, but the 400 pound black man died in the fight. The footage was on the news for days. I think most of the time the cops get off in these cases, but I don't think anyone here would seriously think of disarming cops. Maybe the NAACP, but no one would do it. That just wouldn't work.

There are people here who I fear would disarm the general public, but they are very much in the minority.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2004, 10:17:47 pm by TheGiantSaguaro »Logged

Dave from Michigan
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2004, 10:30:22 pm »
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anyone think they will ever ban guns in america
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2004, 10:46:13 pm »
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anyone think they will ever ban guns in america

No, thank goodness!
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2004, 11:17:04 pm »
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The Tories claim to be the party of law and order, but this rarely translates into action.

The Tories sound like the Republicans.
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Giant Saguaro
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2004, 11:27:11 pm »
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anyone think they will ever ban guns in america

Not in the foreseeable future. Some of the ones who would like to would like to work at banning them gradually, so we start by banning assault weapons, but by the time we get done your shotgun is an assault weapon. That .22 caliber rifle someone plunks around with is an assault weapon. I don't think it will happen because I don't think people would stand for it and I don't think they would get nearly enough votes for something like that.
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English
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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2004, 03:55:19 am »
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Labour are more anti-gun than the Tories, but there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two. Both are vehemently opposed to fire-arms.
I have changed my attitude about the gun isssue. For the simple reason. What is achieved by stopping genuine gun enthusiasts from owning weapons? Nothing!
The dangerous people are the criminals, and they get their weapons illegally anyway. Britain is awash with guns and probably 90% are illegal, it is these people who the government should be clamping down on, not law abiding folk.
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Smash255
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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2004, 04:06:30 am »
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Britain's crime & murder rates however, are MUCH lower than the U.S rates
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English
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« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2004, 05:07:15 am »
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Britain's crime & murder rates however, are MUCH lower than the U.S rates

Not really. For certain crimes such as homicide and rape, yes the rates in the UK are much lower (although they are increasing). For everything else rates in the UK are higher or much higher. Car theft in Britain is the highest in the world, burglary is 2nd highest. Other petty crimes such as theft, minor assaults and mindless vandalism are rampant. Put it this way. I feel safer walking around New York than I do in many UK cities. Britain suffers from an all pervasive yob culture at the moment which the US does not, or doesn't appear to suffer from. It's highly unlikely you will murdered in the UK, however the chances of being verbally abused, assaulted or mugged are probably much higher in the UK than US. The main reason is alcohol. Brits drink VERY heavily indeed!
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I live in the UK and regard myself as a socially liberal, economic centrist. I vote for the British Labour party and support the Canadian NDP and US Democratic parties.


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Platypus
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« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2004, 06:22:14 am »
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*whistles*

no guns-and no need for them either

*whistles*

low crime

*whistles*

an effective legal system

*innocently whistles and walks away*
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« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2004, 07:47:38 am »
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As from what i've seen, English is the only UK person to have spoken on this board, let me tell you he has blown it all out of proportion. Now I dont think people have a 'right' to kill an intruder if necessary, they have no rights to kill anybody. In the UK we are all aware of the Michael Martin case, a slightly unbalanced man, who shot a burglar in the back with an illegally owned shotgun and who shot to kill. He was imprisoned and became a darling of the little Englanders and their right wing fantasies. Martin shot the burglar in the BACK (something a soldier wouldn't even do) when he was running away from his property. After he was shot he was crying out loud and Martin shot him again and quietly walked indoors. No while we know the two burglars had had a record of criminal acts- shooting to kill is never justified in a position like this and Martin got what he deserved. It has been this case which makes peoples hair stand on end. The same little Englanders also rant after 'Peedofiles' (sic) demanding they all be castrated even though 90% of all acts of paedophilia occur within the family and not by some loner with a trenchcoat. Hell, they even daubed graffiti on the surgery of a peadiatrician! As you can see I am very bitter about all this and let you all know that Little English....oops sorry English does not speak for everyone.
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« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2004, 07:50:58 am »
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Oh and English, apologies for nailing you down on this, I know your a liberal/moderate minded individual and I agree with you on the whole 'soft judges thing', but give the Republicans an inch on this board and they'll take a mile! And before we know it Brambilla will be on here ranting about gay sex again. Smiley
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2004, 01:31:27 pm »
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Michael Martin is more than just *slightly* unbalanced... he thinks that all Roma should be shot...

Re: guns... handguns were banned. So were all high velocity firearms. Most shotguns, hunting rifles etc are perfectly legal.
Interesting fact: most gun deaths in the U.K are caused by hollowed-out replicas...
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« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2004, 02:39:17 am »
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In the US or at least here in Florida if you shoot a burglar in the back after he has left your house you will be charged. Yes burglars here sue just as in England. I know of someone who put razorblades on the underside of their cars rims because his rims kept getting stolen. The crook sliced his hands open and sued the owner of the vehicle and won!!
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English
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« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2004, 04:59:51 am »
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On what points have I blown things out of proportion?

Regarding that Martin guy, yes I admit he was unbalanced, however if you look at the history of this case it's perhaps understandable! His property was subject to continual vandalism and theft and the authorities did nothing. It would drive anyone insane!
There is no wonder 'Little Englanders' are so up in arms about crime, that's because NOTHING is ever done about it! Criminals just run riot with complete impunity.
Perhaps if people thought the authorities were on THEIR side there wouldn't be such animosity towards petty theives etc. and people wouldn't come out wielding shotguns.
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Peter
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« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2004, 08:42:50 am »
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On what points have I blown things out of proportion?

Regarding that Martin guy, yes I admit he was unbalanced, however if you look at the history of this case it's perhaps understandable! His property was subject to continual vandalism and theft and the authorities did nothing. It would drive anyone insane!
There is no wonder 'Little Englanders' are so up in arms about crime, that's because NOTHING is ever done about it! Criminals just run riot with complete impunity.
Perhaps if people thought the authorities were on THEIR side there wouldn't be such animosity towards petty theives etc. and people wouldn't come out wielding shotguns.

I was also under the impression that the prosecution claimed that Tony Martin (Michael Martin is the Speaker) had fired without any warning to the intruders and that also his weapon was illegal (pump action shotgun). Case precedent indicates that the property owner is justified in shooting the intruder if he believes himself to be being threatened by the intruder with a deadly weapon; This clearly is not the case here because the intruders did not know he was even there. Also in cases that are controversial in nature, such as this, the jury's personal prejudices come very much into play. The jury in this case was 6 male, 6 female.
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« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2004, 05:10:47 pm »
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On this topic I support the US approach.

Justice in the UK is a laughing stock. Our courts support the criminals over the victims in virtually all cases. You are not allowed to protect your property OR your family. You cannot even use force to prevent unlawful access to your home. Whatsmore, if a criminal is injured trying to force access, on broken glass for instance, they can sue the home owner!!
UK justice stinks!
Personally I believe you should be able to use any force necessary to protect your home or family. The US has got it right.

ahem, please refrain from criticizing our courts as in a few years I will be working in them as a barrister Tongue.
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KEmperor
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« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2004, 12:53:42 am »
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*whistles*

no guns-and no need for them either

*whistles*

low crime

*whistles*

an effective legal system

*innocently whistles and walks away*

Actually,  Australia has also seen its violent crime rates soar after its Port Arthur gun control measures in late 1996. Violent crime rates averaged 32 per cent higher in the six years after the law was passed (from 1997 to 2002) than they did the year before the law in 1996. The same comparisons for armed robbery rates showed increases of 45 percent.  Just informing people here of the fact that gun control does not necessarily reduce crime.
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He isn't a total joke and a communist sympathizer. You'd be lucky to get 10% anywhere outside of DC. I don't even know that you could win DC. It would be awfully close in any event.
RomneyGekko Situation Hairgel
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« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2004, 11:14:28 am »
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I think in the cities in the US, there's not enoguh.  IN rural areas on interstate highways or shore resorts, it's overzealous.  Take the state of NJ for example.  You have highway patrol every mile and God forbid you do something in Wildwood.  Fines there are outrageous.  $1000 for underage drinking, no lie.
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« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2004, 11:44:54 am »
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You're sounding like a Republican, English Smiley

Labour are more anti-gun than the Tories, but there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two. Both are vehemently opposed to fire-arms.
I have changed my attitude about the gun isssue. For the simple reason. What is achieved by stopping genuine gun enthusiasts from owning weapons? Nothing!
The dangerous people are the criminals, and they get their weapons illegally anyway. Britain is awash with guns and probably 90% are illegal, it is these people who the government should be clamping down on, not law abiding folk.
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