Feingold blogging at DKos. "President is living in a pre-1776 world"

[Moooooo]

Figured Id post this as some type of add-on to the Feingold FF or HP thread...

From Daily Kos:

I've seen some strange things in my life, but I cannot describe the feeling I had, sitting on the House floor during Tuesday's State of the Union speech, listening to the President assert that his executive power is, basically, absolute, and watching several members of Congress stand up and cheer him on.  It was surreal and disrespectful to our system of government and to the oath that as elected officials we have all sworn to uphold. Cheering? Clapping? Applause?  All for violating the law?

The President and his administration continue their spin and media blitz in attempts to defend the fact that they broke, and continue to break, the law.  Their weak and shifting justifications for doing so continue.  The latest from the President seems to be that basically the FISA law, passed in 1978, is out of date.  His decision that he can apparently disregard "old law" fits the pattern with the President and his administration.  He's decided to disregard a statute (FISA) and the Constitution (the 4th Amendment) by continuing to wiretap Americans' phone calls and emails without the required warrant, while at the same time claiming powers of the presidency that do not exist. (Perhaps he feels the Constitution is too "old," as well.)  This administration reacts to any questions about spying on American citizens by saying that those of us who stand up for our rights and freedoms are somehow living in a "pre-September 11th, 2001 world." 

In fact, the President is living in a pre-1776 world.

Our Founders lived in dangerous times, and they risked everything for freedom.  Patrick Henry said, "Give me liberty or give me death."   The President's pre-1776 mentality is hurting America and fracturing the foundation on which our country has stood for 230 years.  The President can't just bypass two branches of government, and obey only those laws he wants to obey.  Deciding unilaterally which of our freedoms still apply in the fight against terrorism is unacceptable and needs to be stopped immediately.   

Many of you saw this week's story in the Washington Post on the exchange Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and I had during his confirmation hearing in January of last year.  Mr. Gonzales misled me and the Senate Judiciary Committee under oath about whether the President could spy on Americans without a warrant.  (Many of you blogged about it when the story first broke and I thank you for getting the word out.)  That exchange is extremely telling about the depths to which this administration will go to grab power.  I look forward to a little more honesty from the Attorney General when he testifies about the spying program before the Judiciary Committee on Monday. 

I don't have to tell you how important this issue is.  It gets to the core of what we as a country are all about.  We all agree that we must defeat the terrorists who threaten the safety and security of our families and loved ones.  Why does this President feel we must sacrifice our freedoms to fight terrorism?  This is a gut check moment for members of Congress.  Do we sacrifice our liberty?  Do we bow to those who try to use security issues for political gain? Do we stand and applaud when the President places himself above the law?  Or, do we say enough? 

Stop the power grab, stop the politics, stop breaking the law.

It's time to stand up - not to cheer, but to fight back. 

[opebo]

Good for Feingold, but I'm afraid he won't be able to stop the fascism.  I suppose if he had any chance of actually stopping it his plane would crash.

[MasterJedi]

Now this is what I'm talking about, hurt your chances for winning the general election in 2008! Great job Feingold!

[TheresNoMoney]

Feingold is a great Senator.

[GOP = Terrorists]

Feingold is the man.

[Blue Rectangle]

Our Founders lived in dangerous times, and they risked everything for freedom.  Patrick Henry said, "Give me liberty or give me death."   The President's pre-1776 mentality is hurting America and fracturing the foundation on which our country has stood for 230 years.

So Feingold accuses Bush of having a "pre-1776 mentality", but he applauds Patrick Henry for his famous quote.  Does Feingold realize that quote is from 1775?  Now I'm really confused.  Is a "pre-1776 mentality" good or bad?

[7,052,770]

Our Founders lived in dangerous times, and they risked everything for freedom.  Patrick Henry said, "Give me liberty or give me death."   The President's pre-1776 mentality is hurting America and fracturing the foundation on which our country has stood for 230 years.

So Feingold accuses Bush of having a "pre-1776 mentality", but he applauds Patrick Henry for his famous quote.  Does Feingold realize that quote is from 1775?  Now I'm really confused.  Is a "pre-1776 mentality" good or bad?

He's saying Bush has the mentality of the pre-1776 British, and comparing himself and other Democrats to the Freedom Fighters such as Patrick Henry.

Anyhow, great for Feingold...he rules.

[Blue Rectangle]

Our Founders lived in dangerous times, and they risked everything for freedom.  Patrick Henry said, "Give me liberty or give me death."   The President's pre-1776 mentality is hurting America and fracturing the foundation on which our country has stood for 230 years.

So Feingold accuses Bush of having a "pre-1776 mentality", but he applauds Patrick Henry for his famous quote.  Does Feingold realize that quote is from 1775?  Now I'm really confused.  Is a "pre-1776 mentality" good or bad?

He's saying Bush has the mentality of the pre-1776 British, and comparing himself and other Democrats to the Freedom Fighters such as Patrick Henry.

Anyhow, great for Feingold...he rules.

So Bush should adopt the mentality of the post-1776 British?

Feingold's discussion of NSA surveillance is more confused than his "pre-1776" blather.  Does Feingold agree or disagree with the following statement:

The president may monitor international communications of known terrorists outside of the U.S. without a court order, even if the communications may be received by someone within the U.S.

[opebo]

Does Feingold agree or disagree with the following statement:

The president may monitor international communications of known terrorists outside of the U.S. without a court order, even if the communications may be received by someone within the U.S.

Presumably, like any reasonable person, he disagrees, or why would he bring up the topic?

[© tweed]

Wonderful, except he doesn't exactly describe how W's living in a pre-'76 world.

[Alcon]

Wonderful, except he doesn't exactly describe how W's living in a pre-'76 world.

Yeah.

Unless it is some vague Constitution reference, in which case Feingold is a moron.  Then again, I suppose "President is living in a pre-1789 world" doesn't quite sound as good.

[Blue Rectangle]

This is like Bush accusing Democrats of having a "pre-9/11 mentality" and then quoting FDR after Pearl Harbor as an example of the correct mentality.

Actually, Bush may have done exactly that...but that doesn't make Feingold seem any smarter.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

This is like Bush accusing Democrats of having a "pre-9/11 mentality" and then quoting FDR after Pearl Harbor as an example of the correct mentality.

Actually, Bush may have done exactly that...but that doesn't make Feingold seem any smarter.

FDR defeated the people who attacked us in less than 4 years. Bush let Bin Laden get away in Afganistan.

[Blue Rectangle]

This is like Bush accusing Democrats of having a "pre-9/11 mentality" and then quoting FDR after Pearl Harbor as an example of the correct mentality.

Actually, Bush may have done exactly that...but that doesn't make Feingold seem any smarter.

FDR defeated the people who attacked us in less than 4 years. Bush let Bin Laden get away in Afganistan.

Do we get to use nukes?  Or are you suggesting that Bush be elected twice more?

Your analogy is faulty for the following reasons (and probably several more):
--We effectively conquered Iraq and Afghanistan in a matter of weeks.
--Bin Laden's escape is similar to former Nazis turning up decades latter.
--The resistance in Germany continued years after V-E day.
--FDR (or Truman) never effected reigm change in Japan.

One bad analogy deserves another:
Bush got us out of recession in less than a year.  FDR failed to deliver major economic improvements after eight years in office!

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

This is like Bush accusing Democrats of having a "pre-9/11 mentality" and then quoting FDR after Pearl Harbor as an example of the correct mentality.

Actually, Bush may have done exactly that...but that doesn't make Feingold seem any smarter.

FDR defeated the people who attacked us in less than 4 years. Bush let Bin Laden get away in Afganistan.

Do we get to use nukes?  Or are you suggesting that Bush be elected twice more?

Your analogy is faulty for the following reasons (and probably several more):
--We effectively conquered Iraq and Afghanistan in a matter of weeks.

Unlike Germany and Japan, they haven't stayed defeated.

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Unlike Germany and Japan, Al Qaeda is still alive.

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Did they kill 2000 Americans?

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Keeping the figurehead emperor is irrelevant.

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The stock market is flat during the Bush adminstration.
In these 5 years, 9 million jobs should have been created to keep up with growth in the labor pool. Every Democratic President for the last 40 years had jobs created even faster than that. Yet, only 2.1 million have been created.

[opebo]

Your analogy is faulty for the following reasons (and probably several more):
--We effectively conquered Iraq and Afghanistan in a matter of weeks.

Iraq had nothing to do with '9/11'.

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No, they just wanted to go live in Argentina and be left alone.  He accomplished all his war-making without a country in the first place.

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What does this have to do with Bin Ladena and 9/11?  Remember, Iraq has nothing to do with those.

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Haha!  It is hilarious you comparing the type of little inconsequential recessions we have in these Keynesian days to the enormous depression Roosevelt was left by the laissez-faire folly of his predecessors!

[Blue Rectangle]

Let's not argue over who's analogy was stupider--they were both very bad.

Of course, I was being facetious and you were serious...

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

No jfern's works, as your rebuttal to it has been rebuked twice.

[Blue Rectangle]

No jfern's works, as your rebuttal to it has been rebuked twice.

You honestly believe that WWII is analogous to the War on Terror?

Oh no, I was rebuked by jfern and opebo!  I must be wrong!

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

No jfern's works, as your rebuttal to it has been rebuked twice.

You honestly believe that WWII is analogous to the War on Terror?

Oh no, I was rebuked by jfern and opebo!  I must be wrong!

Well I guess not, as WWII was actually possible to win and actually had a clear enemy.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

No jfern's works, as your rebuttal to it has been rebuked twice.

You honestly believe that WWII is analogous to the War on Terror?

Oh no, I was rebuked by jfern and opebo!  I must be wrong!

Well I guess not, as WWII was actually possible to win and actually had a clear enemy.

This "war on terror" was never meant to be won.

[nlm]

It's good to see somebody calling out the cowards. I doubt it will take, and frankly most of the Democrats have the same amazing lack of guts as our currect elected and appointed leaders. It's a shame to watch the bulk of this country running around with their panties in a bunch, screaming like girl scouts trapped in the shark tank at feeding time.

[Gabu]

Though I may not agree with everything Feingold says, I do like his turning Bush's use of the term "pre-September 11th, 2001 world" on its head.  I've always found this term kind of strange.  Nothing changed on 9/11; it's just that America's point of focus was shifted.  It's not as if, on 9/11, al-Qaeda suddenly appeared out of nowhere.

[The Duke]

Though I may not agree with everything Feingold says, I do like his turning Bush's use of the term "pre-September 11th, 2001 world" on its head.  I've always found this term kind of strange.  Nothing changed on 9/11; it's just that America's point of focus was shifted.  It's not as if, on 9/11, al-Qaeda suddenly appeared out of nowhere.

But you've just pointed out why Bush is right to talk about the pre-9/11 mindset.  And it is a mindset, and when Bush says it he is referring to a mindset.

Its in no way unfair or inaccurate to suggest the following:

If you think terrorism is a serious threat, and wnat to confront it with force, your worldview is shaped by 9/11.  If you don't think terrorism is a particularly dangerous threat and that we had ought to go about things as we alwaays have before, you don't not have a worldview shaped by 9/11.

Feingold's worldview, then, is not shaped by 9/11, and it can be said that, mentally, he is in a world that is "pre-9/11", or a worldview that persists as if 9/11 had never happenned.  Bush on the other hand has a worldview that is obviously driven by 9/11.

Voters can decide for themselves which mindset they prefer, but I don't think its in any way unfair or inaccurate to suggest that the two worldviews are fundamentally different.

[Gabu]

But you've just pointed out why Bush is right to talk about the pre-9/11 mindset.  And it is a mindset, and when Bush says it he is referring to a mindset.

I like the phrase "pre-9/11 mindset" a lot more than the phrase "pre-9/11 world".  It's just the notion that the world somehow changed on 9/11 that bugs me.  The invention of the atomic bomb is an example of something that changed the world.  9/11 wasn't.  It's just people's views on things that changed.

Don't mind me, it's just a dumb pet peeve that I've had ever since Bush first said the phrase "pre-9/11 world".