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Author Topic: Contenders and pretenders  (Read 24198 times)
MSUfan
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« on: November 05, 2003, 08:25:32 pm »
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As you know the democratic field of candidates is crowded.  I am trying to seperate the contenders from the pretenders.


 1:kuchinich-pretender
 2:Sharpton-pretender
 3:braun-pretender
 4:edwards-pretender
 5:dean:contender
 6:kerry:contender
 7:gephardt-contender
 8:lieberman-contender
 9:clark:contender


as always please share your comments
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NorthernDog
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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2003, 09:38:06 pm »
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I consider Clarke to be a pretender.  He has never held elective office and is hard to pin down on the issues.  His campaign is sinking pretty quickly too (not much organization). He's running for Sec. of Defense or Secretary of State.
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agcatter
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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2003, 10:27:59 pm »
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Agree Clark is a pretender.  He's sinking fast.  lousy organization, but mostly he's lacked credibility due to talking out of both sides of his mouth on the war.  Also, those goofy acusations about white house phone calls to him and secret memos from the administration about going after 7 middle eastern countries (?)  Oh yeah.  He's also an opportunist,  Bush, Rumsfield etc were great a year ago now says thry're horrible.  The guy is a goofball with no convictions beyond what is politically expedient at the moment.

I keep hearing all that stuff about how brilliant the Clintons are when it comes to politics.  Yep, they were really brilliant to have dredged up Clark.  Wish Hillary would come out and run so we could finish her off once and for all.
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DarthKosh
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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2003, 11:54:40 pm »
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Clark is DOA.  He had a big splash and then sank like a rock.
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tweed
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« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2003, 04:17:05 pm »
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It's too early to tell if Clark is for real.  He can't really win any big states, which will hurt him in the primary....

I agree with JTF's list except that Lieberman is a pretender.

NEWSFLASH: Dean leads Kerry in NH 38-24%.
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2003, 02:51:33 pm »
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I think that Dean, Gephardt and Clark are the clear front-runners at the moment, and that Edwards may be a dark horse(and the flag "incident" could not have come at a better time for him. He needs to get more publicity).

Kerry has just sacked his campaign manager and Lieberman... is just Lieberman...
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« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2003, 04:04:58 pm »
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I think that Dean, Gephardt and Clark are the clear front-runners at the moment, and that Edwards may be a dark horse(and the flag "incident" could not have come at a better time for him. He needs to get more publicity).

Kerry has just sacked his campaign manager and Lieberman... is just Lieberman...

Clark is not a frontrunner.  Other the the first two weeks he has been falling behind.
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lopaka
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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2003, 05:40:52 pm »
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Howdy, all!-To be honest, it's hard for me to see anybody besides Dean winning the nomination at this point. It mystifies me how Gephart is continued to be talked of in the first tier. Nobody in MISSOURI takes him that seriously, outside of some St. Louis area labor bosses.

Lieberman-no chance, never had.

It pretty much gets down to how quickly people can coalese behind an 'anybody but Dean' candidate. And if it's Kerry, HD is the nominee, because HD has been beating him on his home turf.

I think Clark points up to as much as anything, how, except under the most extremly unusual circumstances, one can start as late as he did. Can anybody imagine an RFK-style candidate these days who declared after the New Hampshire primary? Virtually unthinkable.

I guess Edwards is the best prospect of the long-shots, but he's been running for a while now, with generally favorable press, and has gained zero traction. But again, if it were to somehow very quickly (and I mean very) boil down to Edwards-Dean and the others got behind Edwards, I suppose it's possible.
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watch this space...
Michael Z
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2003, 05:51:16 pm »
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Hi there Lopaka, welcome aboard. Smiley

Very true, Lieberman doesn't stand a chance. A Lieberman ticket would be Mondale '84 all over again, and most Democrats realise that.

Edwards looks more like a potential VP nominee. Way too inexperienced to run for President. Plus he has that slimey lawyer exterior which is bound to turn off a lot of voters. (No offence to any lawyers present here intended, of course...).

Clark is definitely a pretender, simply a last-gasp attempt by the Clintonite wing of the party to find a halfway credible "Stop Dean"-candidate.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2003, 06:08:57 pm by Michael Zeigermann »Logged
NorthernDog
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2003, 08:49:01 pm »
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I think Clark points up to as much as anything, how, except under the most extremly unusual circumstances, one can start as late as he did. Can anybody imagine an RFK-style candidate these days who declared after the New Hampshire primary? Virtually unthinkable.
 
Welcome aboard Kansas.  The only way a late comer can succeed is if he's/she's well known - like Gore, or Hillary.  It seems like the whole primary calendar keeps getting moved back earlier and earlier!
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emergingDmajority
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« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2003, 11:30:40 pm »
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Kerry- Still a contender, quickly turning into a pretender

Dean- 60% pretender 40% contender. I like him, deep down don't think he can win

Gephardt- Contender, slowly gaining steam

Edwards- Ditto

Clark- Beat up a bit, still a contender

Lieberman- Waning, still a contender, hanging by a thread.

Kucinich- There's the door Dennis.....

Sharpton- Thanks for the comic relief & passion

Mosely Braun- Nice lady, but it's time to gracefully bow out
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Demrepdan
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« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2003, 11:45:27 pm »
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Kerry- Still a contender, quickly turning into a pretender

Dean- 60% pretender 40% contender. I like him, deep down don't think he can win

Gephardt- Contender, slowly gaining steam

Edwards- Ditto

Clark- Beat up a bit, still a contender

Lieberman- Waning, still a contender, hanging by a thread.

Kucinich- There's the door Dennis.....

Sharpton- Thanks for the comic relief & passion

Mosely Braun- Nice lady, but it's time to gracefully bow out

I think you're the first person whom I entirely agree with so far, as to who are true contenders and pretenders. The only contenders left seem to be Gephardt, Edwards, and...... *giggles*...Dean...*wahhahahah!*
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2003, 12:41:12 pm »
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Edwards is finally moving in the right direction, Deans remark could not have come at a better time for him and he also "looks right".
One to watch.
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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2003, 05:44:18 pm »
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I would almost definitely get behind anybody-but-Dean. I have heard him speak and frankly he was not that great.

Interestingly enough, a recent poll I saw had Kerry and Mosely-Braun EVEN at 7 percent each. I forgot which poll it was but I remember it clearly because it was quite surprising.
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emergingDmajority
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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2003, 06:51:11 pm »
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I saw that poll too, very hard to believe. I mean Mosely-Braun is only there to divy up the Sharpton vote.

here is the zogby poll

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=755

Lieberman is a sinking ship, and most of his supporters have found life rafts and floated over to the SS Gephardt, some maybe to Edwards who I believe is gaining ground but it's not reflected in this poll

then there are the all important endorsements. The Clinton's and Gore are bound to come out eventually to support somebody other than Dean and that should give the candidate a huge boost. 34% are not sure and are still waiting for the Big Dog to speak : )
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NorthernDog
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« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2003, 04:16:36 pm »
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In the latest New Hampshire Poll (Marist 11/11-13) Dean was leading in that state with 39% to Kerry 24%.  Clarke was down to just 4%!
I think Clarke is a pretender for sure.  His supporters are not the party activists.
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Clay
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« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2003, 07:24:17 pm »
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Here's what I think:

Howard Dean - He started out as a longshot with no chance of winning and has soared into clear frontrunner status.  Dean is a success story, at least in the primary race.  I think Dean's got the primary won already.

John Kerry - At first, it was a Kerry/Lieberman race.  Now Kerry is a pretender, simple as that.  Even if he *did* win, I don't think he'd have a chance against Bush.  There's just something about him--he doesn't have "the look," as, say this next guy does...

John Edwards - He was the Democrat every Republican feared.  Now he's out of the race.  Pretender.

Wesley Clark - He seemed like the perfect candidate, but he's had too many shakeups in his campaign.  Mix that with a failure to get out a message (any kind of message) and you've got yourself another pretender.  Not one person knows where he stands on anything and it doesn't really look like Clark is trying to change that...

Joe Lieberman - He's too conservative to win the primary.  Pretender.

Dick Gephardt - He was a pretender at first, then suddenly became a contender.  This race is now a Dean/Gephardt race.

Sharpton / Kucinich / Moseley Braun - They don't deserve to even be listed.  They have no chance of winning.  They're all only running to satisfy their ego.
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2003, 12:59:49 pm »
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NOTHING is sown up yet.
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« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2003, 05:19:35 pm »
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Here's my take ...

Howard Dean - Contender.  Dean has run a very smart campaign.  He used the internet, he spent money early to get money later, he drew new people into the political process, and he got people excited.  That said, there's not a whole lot of substance there and the "angry guy" pesonae, while fun, is not electable.  He may take the primary but unless he becomes more statesman-like he won't last in the General election.

Wesley Clark - Pretender.  He started out with great #'s only to see them flop.  On paper he looks like a great candidate but in reality he doesn't really reveal much about himself.  I see him more as a VP candidate.  He's too inexperienced or the Presidential campaign.

John Kerry - Contender.  On paper he's the ideal candidate.  A war hero, ivy-league educated, experience in law enforcement, foreign policy, and with the SBA (Small Business Administration).  He's the most #'s oriented of the candidates.  His problem is that he's dry.  You get the feeling if you gave him a few drinks he could be a great candidate.  Maybe the new campaign manager will refocus things and get his #'s up.

Al Sharpton - Pretender.  Not a serious candidate, but the debates are certainly more fun with him in them.

Carol Mosley Braun - Pretender.  America is still a society of glass ceilings.  I think she is campaigning more for a high cabinet position.  Frankly I think she'd do well as Attorney General.  And frankly, I think America could use an African American woman as Attorney General.

Dennis Kucinich - Pretender.  He doesn't realize he's a pretender but he is.  Simply put, Dennis is too liberal.  His candidacy keeps Nader from running and draws the Green Party in closer to the Democrats.

John Edwards - Dark Horse Contender.  He's very slow out of the gates, but many Democrats I've talked to like him as a second choice candidate.  If he can gather some fire or garner a lot of press I wouldn't be shocked to see him make a run at it.  Frankly though he may just be 4 years too early.

Dick Gephardt - Contender.  You have to consider him as a contender because coming in he was probably the most prominant of the candidates.  His polling numbers are high enough and it is early enough that he could still make a run at it.

Joe Leiberman - Pretender.  I really have to wonder what he was thinking in running.  He's too conservative for the Democrats, too liberal for the Republicans, and too dry for most of America.

If I had to give them chances of winning the primary I'd put the following:

*Dean = 50%
*Kerry = 15%
*Gephardt = 11%
*Edwards = 10%
*Clark = 6%
*Kucinich = 3%
*Leiberman = 2.5%
*Braun = 1%
*Sharpton = 0.5%
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emergingDmajority1
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« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2003, 06:56:32 pm »
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Clark should've known better than to appear on FOX News with the Asman. You just knew they were going to bait him, and Clark was biting.

His outburst didn't help, I'm sure FOX already sent the tape to the GOP, mission accomplished.
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NorthernDog
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« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2003, 08:16:44 pm »
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Here's my take ...
Dick Gephardt - Contender.  You have to consider him as a contender because coming in he was probably the most prominant of the candidates.  His polling numbers are high enough and it is early enough that he could still make a run at it.
I keep thinking the same thing. But when I read left-leaning blogs they usually can't stand the guy.  And his poll numbers in NH are in the tank (I think it was 8%) If he's nominated will the Dean supporters bolt to a Green candidate?
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Michael Z
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« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2003, 12:10:52 pm »
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No mention of Lyndon LaRouche?

It's a conspiracy, I tells ya. Wink
« Last Edit: November 21, 2003, 12:15:14 pm by Michael Zeigermann »Logged
tweed
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« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2003, 04:49:48 pm »
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Odds of winning the primary:

Dean: 60%
Gephardt: 25%
Kerry: 10%
Others: 5%
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DarthKosh
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« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2003, 05:01:38 pm »
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NOTHING is sown up yet.

It's looking like Dean has this wrapped up.  Barring any surprises.
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2003, 06:15:59 am »
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No it is not sown up yet... You might like it to be but...
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"I have become entangled in my own data, and my conclusion stands in direct contradiction to the initial idea from which I started. Proceeding from unlimited freedom, I end with unlimited despotism. I will add, however, that there can be no solution of the social formula except mine."
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