Which country is more socially conservative?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Here's an interesting point. Both southeast Asia archipelagos, but with radically different religious demographics. The Philippines of course are far too controlled by the repressive yoke of the Catholic church, and are rather socially conservative. Indonesia however, is often called a "liberal" Muslim country. However, note that both have the same abortion laws (illegal unless the mother's life is threatened). And note that last year, Miss Indonesia competing in the Miss Universe pagaent was given death threats and was the first to participate in a beauty pagaent in a long time, despite the fact she was the only contestant to wear a one-piece swimsuit in that competition instead of a bikini. Philippines never has any problems with beauty pagants and competes in them all the time. Also Philippines has loads of strip clubs. Indonesia probably has some, but not very many, especially per capita. Minnesota probably has more strip clubs than Indonesia.

Therefore one could say Indonesia is more socially conservative than the Philippines, a rather socially conservative country. Now if Indonesia is supposedly a "liberal" Muslim country, what does that tell you? It's probably still more socially conservative than Utah would be if it were an independent country. Perhaps this shows that it's not quite so enlighted as many would want us to believe?

[patrick1]

"Your logic is flawless."  Inignokt


Oh and for the most part Indonesia is more conservative.  Neither country is monolithic and there are many different competing cultures and traditions .  Majority Hindu Bali is more of a freewheeling and permissive area than say Southern Mindanao.

"Repressive yoke" of the Catholic church, please.  Last time I checked there were not Swiss guards holding pikes to people to enforce Church guidelines. 

[MasterJedi]

Indonesia

[DanielX]

Indonesia, although granted the two nations have differentiation by region

I'm convinced that Indonesia may yet fall apart into two or more states - both Bali and Irian Jaya (west New Guinea) are both culturally quite distinct from the muslim-dominated islands such as Java.

[opebo]

Both are far, far less conservative than Utah, BRTD, and in practice less conservative than any part of the USA, for the simple reason that both have large and mostly tolerated prostitution industries.  These are somewhat discrete, particularly in Indonesia, but both have bars, nightclubs, massage parlours, and many, many venues to hire companionship.

What is there in Utah?  Nothing.  Utah is a completely useless place.  For that matter so is Missouri. 

[Platypus]

BRTD, that is probably the most stupid argument you've put forward in a long, long while.

[Jake]

Brilliant argument.

[Beet]

I don't see how anyone who is not intimately familiar with both cultures can possibly answer this question. 99 out of a 100 times that means someone who is either Indonesian or Filippino.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD, that is probably the most stupid argument you've put forward in a long, long while.

Why? The point is simply that the most liberal Muslim countries are still more conservative than the most conservative Christian countries.

Oh and for the most part Indonesia is more conservative.  Neither country is monolithic and there are many different competing cultures and traditions .  Majority Hindu Bali is more of a freewheeling and permissive area than say Southern Mindanao.

Probably true, but like you said, it's majority Hindu. Hence it's not really relevant to the comparison being made.

"Repressive yoke" of the Catholic church, please.  Last time I checked there were not Swiss guards holding pikes to people to enforce Church guidelines.

No, but they still hold a lot of influence and use that to try to work against the free distribution of contraceptives (even though basically every government has supported it) and Arroyo's attempts to loosen the abortion laws (even though she still sucks)

BTW, I was right about the strip clubs, there's 16 in Indonesia, compared to 40 in Minnesota. This is with 206,264,595 people in Indonesia and 4,919,479 in Minnesota. That means ratios of 12,891,537:1 in Indonesia and 122,987:1 in Minnesota, which itself is a ratio of more than 100:1. Philippines has 80, with a population of 76,498,735, which is a ratio of 956,234:1 which is almost 8 times as much as Minnesota, but still less than 1/13th of Indonesia's. Also I'm sure if you toss out the boring rural areas the ratio goes way way up, and judging by the massive amount in Angeles City I want to visit there now very badly!

[opebo]

I wouldn't place too much stock in your strip club guide, BRTD.  I got laid in Indonesia by a beautiful 20-ish girl for 200,000 rupiah - about $20-22.. in the upstairs room of a bar where the girls downstairs were dancing in bikinis.  And that was in Batam, a very minor island near Singapore.  I suspect that there are a lot more venues for procuring genuine satisfaction in Indonesia than in Minnesota or any other American state.

I'll say it again - the US is far more socially conservative in practice than either the Phillipines or Indonesia.

[Beet]

Yeah BRTD, I find it hard to believe there are only 16 "strip clubs" in a country of 240m people. It's not like they are all going to be registered with the government.

[opebo]

Yeah BRTD, I find it hard to believe there are only 16 "strip clubs" in a country of 240m people. It's not like they are all going to be registered with the government.

I have to admit I only saw one bar that could seriously be called a 'strip club' in Batam town, though there were several other bars where one could get hookers.  I have read that there are large red light districts in Jakarta and Surabaya, and moderate sized ones in many other cities.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'm pretty sure the site I use includes only "legitimate" clubs.

P.S. I can't believe the sheer amount there are in Pattya! Holy sh!t!

[Cubby]

Philippenes

Every Catholic country is more liberal than any Muslim country.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I think a lot of people missed my point, at least those calling it a stupid argument. The case is often made by Islam apologists that there isn't neccesarily anything wrong with Islam, it's just the nature of the countries it happens to be prominent in as opposed to Christianity, etc. and that you can't really compare Western countries to the Middle East. So here I compared two countries that are much more similar. And even in this case, the Muslim country is more conservative. So the point stands that even the most conservative Christian contries are still less so than the most liberal Muslim countries, even in cases where they are similar. Therefore, Islam is definately inherently repressive.

[Platypus]

BRTD, 'free' sex is only one very small part of western liberalisation, and certainly not the best indicator of it. In Russia, there are tonnes of strip clubs-but would you call it more liberal then Australia? Sure, we have strip clubs too, but not as many as Russia.

[opebo]

I'm pretty sure the site I use includes only "legitimate" clubs.

P.S. I can't believe the sheer amount there are in Pattya! Holy sh!t!

Yes, Pattaya is the best place in the world - the center of the world, really.  And as such it is under heavy attack from the Forces of Social Control.  Every time I leave I have terrible fears that it will be suppressed before I can get back.