Solution to all the worlds problems
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Author Topic: Solution to all the worlds problems  (Read 2658 times)
Bono
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« on: February 18, 2006, 04:36:24 PM »











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A18
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« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2006, 04:37:55 PM »

Cities are atrocious. Suburb states, maybe.
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Gabu
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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2006, 07:19:44 PM »

I assume that when you say "solution", you're using the definition that comes from bashing your head against the keyboard, and not the dictionary definition.
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opebo
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« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2006, 07:25:30 PM »

Cities are atrocious. Suburb states, maybe.

Suburbs are atrocious.  What do you know about it - you are a bored teenager with no life.
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2006, 07:29:09 PM »

Cities are atrocious. Suburb states, maybe.

Suburbs are atrocious.  What do you know about it - you are a bored teenager with no life.


Suburbs are better than crap filled Thailand. What do you know about it- you just have no life.
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opebo
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« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2006, 07:38:23 PM »

Cities are atrocious. Suburb states, maybe.

Suburbs are atrocious.  What do you know about it - you are a bored teenager with no life.


Suburbs are better than crap filled Thailand. What do you know about it- you just have no life.

You have not been to Thailand, xenophobe.  I have been both there and in the Bad Place, and the latter is the 'crap filled' place.
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Platypus
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« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2006, 08:28:54 AM »

you know, if that happenned, India, South Africa, Pakistan, the Windies, Sri Lanka, Australia and New Zealand could conquer the world and make everyone play cricket.
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Colin
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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2006, 12:13:10 PM »

you know, if that happenned, India, South Africa, Pakistan, the Windies, Sri Lanka, Australia and New Zealand could conquer the world and make everyone play cricket.

Truely a fate worse than death. Wink
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2006, 12:44:18 PM »

Cities are atrocious. Suburb states, maybe.

Suburbs are atrocious.  What do you know about it - you are a bored teenager with no life.


Suburbs are better than crap filled Thailand. What do you know about it- you just have no life.

You have not been to Thailand, xenophobe.  I have been both there and in the Bad Place, and the latter is the 'crap filled' place.

I really don't care about your opinions Opebo, you're human trash to me. Just STFU and leave is all alone, or better yet kill yourself to better humanity. Or stay in Thailand, just STFU and leave everybody else alone prude.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2006, 04:32:30 AM »

you know, if that happenned, India, South Africa, Pakistan, the Windies, Sri Lanka, Australia and New Zealand could conquer the world and make everyone play cricket.
Which would be the solution to all the world's problems.
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BRTD
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2006, 11:37:59 AM »

Cities are atrocious. Suburb states, maybe.

Suburbs are atrocious.  What do you know about it - you are a bored teenager with no life.


Suburbs are better than crap filled Thailand. What do you know about it- you just have no life.

Ever been to Thailand? I haven't, but I know there's lots more to do there than in any suburb. Ever been to the Twin Cities area? If so, I hope you don't honestly believe the suburbs are more interesting than Minneapolis.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2006, 12:06:27 PM »

The point of suburbs, BRTD, is to provide people with a place to live outside the core of the city; a classic commuter suburb is basically dead during the daytime. Working class suburbs are often different in that a lot of factories and so on will have moved out of the core city into them.
(I'm generalising here o/c).

Example:

This is the City of London (ie; London's CBD)...



It's population is about 8,600... but during the daytime about 344,000 people work there.
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BRTD
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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2006, 01:20:51 PM »

Comparing European cities/suburbs to American ones is pretty pointless though, European cities have existed for centuries longer and typically have developed differently. Then there's how policies affect things much differently (look at France). Judging from what Bono has said I'd probably rather live in the suburb he lives in than much of Lisbon proper.

The McMansion sprawling hell suburbs we have are just ugly and awful, and incredibly boring. To provide people a place to live outside the city is stupid, the city is where everything interesting is, why go there just to work? Plus the only people I know who work in Minneapolis live in Minneapolis, my relatives who live in the suburbs all work there. In fact even I work in a suburb (although there are parts of North Mankato that aren't suburban and parts of Mankato that are, but the point still is that I live in a non-suburban area and work in a suburban one).
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Gabu
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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2006, 03:32:48 PM »

To provide people a place to live outside the city is stupid, the city is where everything interesting is, why go there just to work?

Can you honestly not comprehend the thought that other people might have different opinions on the matter?
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2006, 04:46:57 PM »

Comparing European cities/suburbs to American ones is pretty pointless though,

Well no, not really. There are certain differences, but the process of suburbanisation in America and the U.K have been very similer, with one major exception (ie; state planned suburbanisation through the construction of New Towns and so on, with the deliberate objective of getting people out of the inner cities).

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Not at all; most of the big industrial cities in Europe grew up around the same time as the industrial cities did in America. Philadelphia is clearly an older city than Bradford (which was a little village until the 19th century and which only got city status in the 1890's) and is in many ways older than a lot of industrial cities and large towns over here.
The ages of Pittsburgh and Sheffield *as major urban centres* are freakishly similer.

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You don't think we have sprawl as well?

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Why?

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But it's also seen as unsafe, as cramped, as polluted... etc, etc.

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Because you can't really have your own house in the central part of a city. People want space (that's the main reason for suburbanisation after all).

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A lot of people work in suburbs here as well. But still over 300k people are in the CBD of our largest city in the day than at night. Commuting from a commuter-suburb into the CBD is especially common with people who have jobs in finance o/c.

Besides, you can't have suburbs without a city, because the suburbs are fundamentally part of the city... hell commuter villages are fundamentally part of the city as well...
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BRTD
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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2006, 09:40:33 PM »

Comparing European cities/suburbs to American ones is pretty pointless though,

Well no, not really. There are certain differences, but the process of suburbanisation in America and the U.K have been very similer, with one major exception (ie; state planned suburbanisation through the construction of New Towns and so on, with the deliberate objective of getting people out of the inner cities).

Well it is in the case of London. I can't think of any American city set up like London is. It also is true in the cases of Paris (the suburbs there certainly aren't where the wealthy yuppies live) or Lisbon (at least based on the way it votes)

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Not at all; most of the big industrial cities in Europe grew up around the same time as the industrial cities did in America. Philadelphia is clearly an older city than Bradford (which was a little village until the 19th century and which only got city status in the 1890's) and is in many ways older than a lot of industrial cities and large towns over here.
The ages of Pittsburgh and Sheffield *as major urban centres* are freakishly similer.

Not true in all cases, but certainly true in the cities everyone can recognize.

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You don't think we have sprawl as well?

Well like I said above, it's not limited to the suburbs as here. Paris is the most obvious example here. And the other example I used is Lisbon, Bono lives in an apartment in a very urban heavily Socialist suburb, while Lisbon proper actually seems to vote rather conservative (although admittedly the other major cities in Portugal aren't quite the same) and apparentely is full of sprawl and suburban areas.


Because it'd be easier to just live where you work.

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But it's also seen as unsafe, as cramped, as polluted... etc, etc.

Seen as that often yes, but most are nowhere near as bad as you hear the dazzleman types whine about.

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Because you can't really have your own house in the central part of a city.

My aunt does.

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A lot of people work in suburbs here as well. But still over 300k people are in the CBD of our largest city in the day than at night. Commuting from a commuter-suburb into the CBD is especially common with people who have jobs in finance o/c.

But it also sound as if most of these people also live in "London", it's just that the actual proper of London is so small in residential terms. I'm sure many of the people I know in Minneapolis work in commerce districts where very few people actually live, but they still live in Minneapolis proper.


Besides, you can't have suburbs without a city, because the suburbs are fundamentally part of the city... hell commuter villages are fundamentally part of the city as well...

True, but you can have a city which is basically just suburban which often has no real actual seperate suburbs (I'm thinking of Bismarck here, ugh). Plus you can very well have a city without suburbs, I doubt Addis Abba or Guatemala City are surrounded by hideous sprawl.
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opebo
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« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2006, 10:23:52 PM »

The McMansion sprawling hell suburbs we have are just ugly and awful, and incredibly boring. To provide people a place to live outside the city is stupid, the city is where everything interesting is, why go there just to work?

It is stupid, and not just in the subjective sense - after all just because intelligent people prefer stimulating urban environments doesn't mean dullards should to - but more importantly in the practical sense.

It is simply enormously costly to house people in suburbs and force them all to own cars and commute.   Not only are cars ridiculously expensive, and wasteful ways to move people, the act of driving is a tension causing bore.  To live in a place where you do not have to have to horrible burden of car ownership is such a feeling of freedom.
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BRTD
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« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2006, 10:31:58 PM »

To live in a place where you do not have to have to horrible burden of car ownership is such a feeling of freedom.

This is one thing I could not agree more with. I hate cars. I actually got into a discussion with this with my mom last week when she suggested I save up my tax returns to buy a car later. I told her once I graduate I'm never driving except when I'm leaving the city I live in. I actually already have a "no driving" policy in Minneapolis. I only drive to get there and to leave. If I'm shopping at my downtown indie stores, I park somewhere and walk to every one. If I'm hitting the red light district, I park in a public parking ramp and walk everywhere. Going to other places I'll get a ride from my aunt or friends, or take the bus. The only situation in Minneapolis where I'll drive from one part of the city to another is if I'm going to a music show there and want to hit up other places before or after. I can not wait till I actually live there and am free from the horrendous burden of a vehicle (while getting around in Mankato without a vehicle is possible, it's also rather expensive, really only suitable if you live in the dorms, and not possible working at the place I do)
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patrick1
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« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2006, 10:38:25 PM »

Re:  Bono's initial post:  I am not sure what you are trying to get at here.  There were plenty of wars and entangling alliances etc. when Ancinet Greece was organized in city states.  Furthermore, more recently there was plenty of intrigue and trade wars between the Italian city states during the Renaissance.  Please expand on your post.
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Bono
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2006, 05:46:44 PM »

Re:  Bono's initial post:  I am not sure what you are trying to get at here.  There were plenty of wars and entangling alliances etc. when Ancinet Greece was organized in city states.  Furthermore, more recently there was plenty of intrigue and trade wars between the Italian city states during the Renaissance.  Please expand on your post.

The smaller a state is, the least opressive it is going to be. Look at the world today. who cuases most of the trouble? Luxembourg, Liechtrenstein or Andorra?
No it's the big shots like France, Iran, EUA, China etc.
So, diving everything into city states provides for much more leverage, much less opressive states, much more competition between them, and an end to the culture war. You can just move to a city state where people of your prefered kind live. since it's all just so damn small, it wouldnt impact much.
It would be like the Holy Roman Empire in its decadent phase, except no austria.
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Colin
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« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2006, 08:16:24 PM »

Re:  Bono's initial post:  I am not sure what you are trying to get at here.  There were plenty of wars and entangling alliances etc. when Ancinet Greece was organized in city states.  Furthermore, more recently there was plenty of intrigue and trade wars between the Italian city states during the Renaissance.  Please expand on your post.

The smaller a state is, the least opressive it is going to be. Look at the world today. who cuases most of the trouble? Luxembourg, Liechtrenstein or Andorra?
No it's the big shots like France, Iran, EUA, China etc.
So, diving everything into city states provides for much more leverage, much less opressive states, much more competition between them, and an end to the culture war. You can just move to a city state where people of your prefered kind live. since it's all just so damn small, it wouldnt impact much.
It would be like the Holy Roman Empire in its decadent phase, except no austria.

Last time I looked Bahrain, Singapore, and Djibouti were all pretty oppressive. Azerbaijan's pretty small but its very oppressive. Same with Bhutan, Nepal, Swaziland, Malawi. The list goes on. I don't believe that big=oppresive since many oppresive regimes have found homes in small nations.
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Platypus
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« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2006, 10:17:47 PM »

Melbourne, and to a lesser extent Sydney, have masses of sprawling suburbs but the inner cities are also highly developed. I'd guesstimate that 2 million people live within 15km of the CBD, but Melbourne goes on and on and on and on, because our suburban sprawl is very low density. If you draw a straight line across the center of the CBD, west-east, you head from field into new McMansion developments into quarter-acre block zones-inner city single-frontyed Victorians-industries-the brand new, densely populated Docklands developement-the city-inner suburbs-quarter acre blocks from the 20s-quarter acre blocks from the 50s-quarter acre blocks from the 70s-McMansions-Farms.

The bold part represents where most people would live.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2006, 10:42:44 PM »

To provide people a place to live outside the city is stupid, the city is where everything interesting is, why go there just to work?

Can you honestly not comprehend the thought that other people might have different opinions on the matter?

I don't think he can.  He completely ignores the fact that I live quite contentedly in one of the "McMansion sprawling hell suburbs" (well, my suburb isn't 'sprawling', but I'm fairly confident he'd call it a 'McMansion hell'), and find it neither awful nor boring, and certainly not 'ugly'.  'Ugly' is inner city Minneapolis.  (though FWIW downtown is decent)
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BRTD
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« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2006, 11:42:13 PM »

Have you ever been to Shakopee or Eden Prairie or Maple Grove?
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2006, 07:41:54 AM »

Have you ever been to Shakopee or Eden Prairie or Maple Grove?

Of course, silly.  Shakopee has Valleyfair, Eden Prairie had some sort of academic event (now that's a sprawling hell, the interstate out to there was horrible, and we had to drive for like 20 minutes to find any sort of restaurant Tongue), and I have some friends in Maple Grove.  I don't see anything really wrong with them, though (besides Eden Prairie's frightening lack of restaurants... even fast food restaurants!).  When was the last time you went to Maple Grove?  It develops really quickly, so it has probably changed since you've seen it last Tongue
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