40% of British Muslims want Sharia Law.

[dazzleman]

You know Daz, you can write very well, but I sometimes, just sometimes, wonder whether you actually can read.

What am I reading wrong?  Isn't more just that I'm putting a different interpretation on what I've read than you would?  If I have made a factual error, please let me know.

[minionofmidas]

Ah yes, I'm sorry. I overlooked the "regardless of what they're saying" part. You can read, you're just paranoid. Probably a paranoid schizophrenic.

[dazzleman]

Ah yes, I'm sorry. I overlooked the "regardless of what they're saying" part. You can read, you're just paranoid. Probably a paranoid schizophrenic.

Not sure what part you're talking about, and I don't intend to go back and re-read the whole damn thing.

Suffice to say that I find the attitude of some muslims very alarming.  You should too, if you were smart.  It's not paranoia, but rational concern about the behavior of a people who appear to be experiencing mass insanity.  As a German, you ought to have some experience with that, and concern about where it could lead.  People also said that those alarmed about the Nazis were paranoid, but they should have listened earlier.  Lots of lives could have been saved.

[minionofmidas]

In that case, you (and millions like you, all over the "West") are seeing the splinter in the other's eye and overlooking the [help with biblical English needed] in their own eye.

But that's what I've been saying for years... I have far more fear of Western anti-Islamic bigotry and fanaticism (especially when posing as / considering itself to be liberal (Euro sense) ) than I have of devout Muslims. And anybody claiming that all devout Muslims - that's really what this poll question comes down to - wants to "forcibly impose extreme values on society as a whole" (read: our society) no matter what they say is a) at least potentially a menace to world peace b) is using an argumentation that does remind me, as a German who knows his history, of National Socialism. (And my great granddad joined that party in the mid 1920s.)

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying "you're a Nazi" or "Afleitch and Pym (our Pym) are Nazis" or "Bush is a Nazi" or whatever. All I'm saying is, you - us; as in this society to which I belong - are on a pretty dangerous slope at the moment.

[dazzleman]

In that case, you (and millions like you, all over the "West") are seeing the splinter in the other's eye and overlooking the [help with biblical English needed] in their own eye.

But that's what I've been saying for years... I have far more fear of Western anti-Islamic bigotry and fanaticism (especially when posing as / considering itself to be liberal (Euro sense) ) than I have of devout Muslims. And anybody claiming that all devout Muslims - that's really what this poll question comes down to - wants to "forcibly impose extreme values on society as a whole" (read: our society) no matter what they say is a) at least potentially a menace to world peace b) is using an argumentation that does remind me, as a German who knows his history, of National Socialism. (And my great granddad joined that party in the mid 1920s.)

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying "you're a Nazi" or "Afleitch and Pym (our Pym) are Nazis" or "Bush is a Nazi" or whatever. All I'm saying is, you - us; as in this society to which I belong - are on a pretty dangerous slope at the moment.

Nobody said that EVERY devout muslim wants to impose his faith on everybody.  Just as not every German wanted to attack every neighboring country and kill 50 million people.  It only requires that there is a strong base that wants to do that, and the vast majority either doesn't active oppose that agenda, or gives it tacit approval.  That appears to be the situation with muslims.

I think you fear the wrong danger.

[afleitch]

All I'm saying is, you - us; as in this society to which I belong - are on a pretty dangerous slope at the moment.

We are, but I believe a different slope to the one you believe. I believe that we are in danger of loosing our liberal and democratic traditions if we don't fight for them. I'm not a racist; I don't have a problem with Hindu's, Sikhs and so on. I don't even have a problem with Muslims. I DO have a problem with Islam and I don't disguise that. I also don't like fundamentalist Christians either so I am being consistent in my views.

If anything political Islam is fascist in itself. If you sit down look at and then break down the demands and the world view of many Muslim political groups, they are fascist. Now I am talking about political Islam here, the Hizb ut Tahrir's of the world. It degrades women, executes homosexuals is violently anti-semetic, believes the west is corrupt, democracy is pointless and only those who succumb to Islam would be allowed any positions of authority what so ever. It is disgusting, perferted and wrong yet THAT groups is to be invited to the UK Parliament for a meeting!

Sharia law is just as stomach turning too and if it is to be believed that 40% of British Muslims wish Sharia law to be imposed that is very disturbing to anyone who believes in liberty and the rule of law.

[dazzleman]

All I'm saying is, you - us; as in this society to which I belong - are on a pretty dangerous slope at the moment.

We are, but I believe a different slope to the one you believe. I believe that we are in danger of loosing our liberal and democratic traditions if we don't fight for them. I'm not a racist; I don't have a problem with Hindu's, Sikhs and so on. I don't even have a problem with Muslims. I DO have a problem with Islam and I don't disguise that. I also don't like fundamentalist Christians either so I am being consistent in my views.

If anything political Islam is fascist in itself. If you sit down look at and then break down the demands and the world view of many Muslim political groups, they are fascist. Now I am talking about political Islam here, the Hizb ut Tahrir's of the world. It degrades women, executes homosexuals is violently anti-semetic, believes the west is corrupt, democracy is pointless and only those who succumb to Islam would be allowed any positions of authority what so ever. It is disgusting, perferted and wrong yet THAT groups is to be invited to the UK Parliament for a meeting!

Sharia law is just as stomach turning too and if it is to be believed that 40% of British Muslims wish Sharia law to be imposed that is very disturbing to anyone who believes in liberty and the rule of law.

I agree with your point of view Andy, other than that I don't share the degree of distaste that you have for fundamentalist Christians.  I believe very much in the Christian faith, and I don't see fundamentalists committing violence with the broad support of their communities, as muslims are.

[minionofmidas]

Nobody said that EVERY devout muslim wants to impose his faith on everybody.

The issue of who controls the values and culture of society is exactly what this is all about.  These people want to forcibly impose extreme values on society as a whole, regardless of what they are actually saying.

I rest my case.

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I could make a better, but still not exactly good, case, that that appears to be the situation with neocons.

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I fear the danger at my own door, the one that threatens my own country and hometown, and some friends of mine.

I'm not saying everything is alright with Arab society (obviously. That'd be daft).

[dazzleman]

Nobody said that EVERY devout muslim wants to impose his faith on everybody.

The issue of who controls the values and culture of society is exactly what this is all about.  These people want to forcibly impose extreme values on society as a whole, regardless of what they are actually saying.

I rest my case.

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I could make a better, but still not exactly good, case, that that appears to be the situation with neocons.

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I fear the danger at my own door, the one that threatens my own country and hometown, and some friends of mine.

I'm not saying everything is alright with Arab society (obviously. That'd be daft).

Lewis, I think that muslims, by playing the victim, are making the same mistake that many ethnic minorities in the west have made in recent years.

They'd be a lot better off in the long run, IMO, if they were, on some level, willing to acknowledge and somehow address society's somewhat justified fears and suspicions about them, rather than just becoming outraged about them.  Their present attitude simply deepens the problem.

[minionofmidas]

I believe that we are in danger of loosing our liberal and democratic traditions if we don't fight for them.

These include a certain amount of respect, and a very high amount of tolerance for those with differing opinions - including for religiouses. In fact they're worthless, and not democratic and not really liberal without them (and your position is *exactly* the posing as / considering itself to be liberal position I was referring to above.)

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So you're a bigoted atheist then?
No wait, you're not an atheist... a bigoted wishy-washy Christian maybe?
I'm just looking for a good label for this new ism that I'm seeing all over the Western media ... none seems to exist yet. It's true that "racism" is inaccurate (though of course, certainly not for everyone with these views but certainly for some, racism is one of the streams of thought that feed into this new ideology.) but then so is anything with "liberal" in it.

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Using a certain definition of political Islam, and a certain definition of fascist, this is accurate, yes. No contest.

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Ah, but equating Hizb ut Tahrir with the whole of political Islam is patently absurd.

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They say the same about our society, you know? Not saying either view is right.

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if you're thinking of that case of under 18 year olds some months ago, they were homosexual rapists. Now don't get me wrong - I don't approve of the death penalty, I approve even less of the death penalty for crimes other than murder, and I approve even less than that of the death penalty for minors. And IIRC the evidence may have been dodgy in that case. That leaves more than enough to condemn. Then again, dodgy evidence and executions of minors occur in the country this website is registered in, and the death penalty for rape still has a lot of popular support there.

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No comment according to my stated policy

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And is the West not corrupt? Especially in its dealings with Arabia? If you think that you really need to get a grip, you know?

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I see you've quit talking about Iran - the closest thing to a democracy found in those parts really - and are back firmly with the Hizb ut Tahrir wackos

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That group is illegal in Germany.

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And here we're back at step a.
Read what Sharia ("Sharia law" is a waste of words, like "black-and-white striped zebra") means, to a Muslim - to the people who took this poll - , not to an uninformed Christian regurgitating the half-truths he's been fed by a hateful media, and repeat that claim. Start with Al's posts in this thread, they're a good starting point.

[dazzleman]

Lewis, all I can say is, enjoy living under Sharia.  And don't think they'll be very tolerant of your sort.  You are willfully blind to the dangers that militant islamic fascism poses, just as many were blind to the dangers of the Nazis.

[afleitch]

Actually Lewis, Iran has executed upwards of 1000 homosexuals since the 1979 revolution. Many others have fled to the west in fear of their life. May gay Iranians are actually members of gay rights groups in the UK and those that do live in fear of reprisals from some sections of the Muslim community within the UK.

EDIT: And I was not equating Hizb ut Tahrir with mainstream Islam, I was citing them as an example of politicisied Islam.

[minionofmidas]

Many others have fled to the west in fear of their life. May gay Iranians are actually members of gay rights groups in the UK

Yes. And good for them. And true over here, too. (Scandalously Germany, unlike the UK, doesn't always recognized prosecution for sexual orientation as a grounds for granting asylum, although sometimes they do. Was a case in the media here in Frankfurt really ... guy would have almost got deported back to Iran. Thankfully that didn't happen.)

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You were equating Hizb ut Tahrir with mainstream political Islam. Which is grotesque. Not to mention deceitful. Not to mention, really quite disgusting from someone who should know better.

[minionofmidas]

Lewis, all I can say is, enjoy living under Sharia.  And don't think they'll be very tolerant of your sort.

sigh ... not a f**ing issue here...

[afleitch]

You were equating Hizb ut Tahrir with mainstream political Islam. Which is grotesque. Not to mention deceitful. Not to mention, really quite disgusting from someone who should know better.

I was offering up Hizb ut Tahrir as an example only. Is it wrong to dislike political Islam? It seems to be seen as alright for people to dislike 'political Judaism,' or so called 'Zionism' in Israel, and it is seen as ok to take a stand against 'politicised Christianity' within the US for example.

I just don't like politics and religion mixing to such a degree.

[minionofmidas]

You were equating Hizb ut Tahrir with mainstream political Islam. Which is grotesque. Not to mention deceitful. Not to mention, really quite disgusting from someone who should know better.

I was offering up Hizb ut Tahrir as an example only.

Yeah, but that's like offering the guy who shot Yitzhak Rabin as an example of Zionism. Or offering the guy who ruled Slovakia under the Nazis as an example of Political Catholicism.

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Define "wrong". Define "dislike". No matter how you define these though, it is certainly a legit position - but that's not saying much.

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Ah, but it's impossible to keep them apart. All policy has a basis in ethical/religious views. I prefer for people to be aware of theirs. (And I also prefer for people to keep theirs out of policy as far as they can, but that's a different discussion.)

[dazzleman]

Lewis, all I can say is, enjoy living under Sharia.  And don't think they'll be very tolerant of your sort.

sigh ... not a f**ing issue here...

Right...and the Nazis were just misunderstood people who simply wanted to politically unite ethnic Germans.

[Beet]

It's not just Muslims who are vulnerable to it. An Italian court recently decided that a child rapist could basically get off with a very light sentence just because his victim was not a virgin.

Was this an actual rape or just the fake 'statutory rape'?

Real rape

It probably should have gone in its own thread but I think it's more useful here where people can see that many of the religiously-based traditionalist attitudes behind Sharia law can be generalized across religions.

[minionofmidas]

Lewis, all I can say is, enjoy living under Sharia.  And don't think they'll be very tolerant of your sort.

sigh ... not a f**ing issue here...

Right...and the Nazis were just misunderstood people who simply wanted to politically unite ethnic Germans.

Better parallel... German emigrants in England or France in the 1930s were not Nazi double agents.

[dazzleman]

Lewis, all I can say is, enjoy living under Sharia.  And don't think they'll be very tolerant of your sort.

sigh ... not a f**ing issue here...

Right...and the Nazis were just misunderstood people who simply wanted to politically unite ethnic Germans.

Better parallel... German emigrants in England or France in the 1930s were not Nazi double agents.

Maybe, maybe not.  Yet ethnic Germans in countries neighboring Germany were a very effect 'fifth column' against the country in which they lived.  In a clash of values between the west and militant islam, I suspect I know which side some percentage of Europeans muslims will symphathize with.

[phk]

Nobody said that EVERY devout muslim wants to impose his faith on everybody.

The issue of who controls the values and culture of society is exactly what this is all about.  These people want to forcibly impose extreme values on society as a whole, regardless of what they are actually saying.

I rest my case.

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I could make a better, but still not exactly good, case, that that appears to be the situation with neocons.

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I fear the danger at my own door, the one that threatens my own country and hometown, and some friends of mine.

I'm not saying everything is alright with Arab society (obviously. That'd be daft).

Lewis, I think that muslims, by playing the victim, are making the same mistake that many ethnic minorities in the west have made in recent years.

Muslim is not an ethnic group.

[dazzleman]

Muslim is not an ethnic group.

Well, I agree, but they sure function as one, especially when they accuse people who question their beliefs of "racism."  If you act like an alienated ethnic group, rather than a religion, you'll be treated like one.  It is really a matter of identity, and some people consider their religion to be their ethnicity.  I don't, but many do.

[minionofmidas]

Identity. That's the better word. Or Tribe.

Of course, it's not as if this was their fault, let alone their fault alone. The Us vs Them definitions are usually set (of course!) by the dominant group, and so in this case as well.
(Thence in Germany, the Them category is still essentially "Ausländer", meaning the 1960s and post 1960s immigrants from the mediterranean, whether Muslim or Catholic or Orthodox, and usually the recent, nominally ethnic German, immigrants from Russia as well - but not including pre-1989 ethnic-German immigrants from Poland.) The stereotypical Ausländer, of course, is a Turk, but that don't mean an Italian is part of "us".)

[dazzleman]

What do you think of this, Lewis?  Do you think a person insulting Christians would be treated this way?
_____________________________________________

German court convicts man for insulting Islam Thu Feb 23, 9:47 AM ET
 


DUESSELDORF, Germany (Reuters) - A German court on Thursday convicted a businessman of insulting Islam by printing the word "Koran" on toilet paper and offering it to mosques.

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The 61-year-old man, identified only as Manfred van H., was given a one-year jail sentence, suspended for five years, and ordered to complete 300 hours of community service, a district court in the western German town of Luedinghausen ruled.

The conviction comes after a Danish newspaper printed cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammad -- sparking violent protests around the world from Muslims who saw the images as sacrilegious and an attack on their beliefs.

Manfred van H. printed out sheets of toilet paper bearing the word "Koran" shortly after a group of Muslims carried out a series of bomb attacks in London in July 2005. He sent the paper to German television stations, magazines and some 15 mosques.

Prosecutors said that in an accompanying letter Manfred van H. called Islam's holy book a "cookbook for terrorists."

He also offered his toilet paper for sale on the Internet at a price of 4 euros ($4.76) per roll, saying the proceeds would go toward a "memorial to all the victims of Islamic terrorism."

The maximum sentence for insulting religious beliefs under the German criminal code is three years in prison.

[minionofmidas]

Funny law that... your article fails to mention it, but "insulting religious beliefs" is only illegal if the insult is deemed "suitable to endanger the peace" (ie, provoking those insulted into rioting, basically) - mind you, it's not necessary that anybody actually riots as a result. In this case, this was held to be the case (though nobody rioted, they just notified the police.)
What's more, while jail is a possibility, even in the case of a conviction there's usually just a fine. In this case, a fine was not considered sufficient due to the defendant's criminal record (arson, possession of unlicensed explosives - nothing to do with Islam. In fact, an earlier suspended jail sentence of his expired the very day of the trial.) Another odd note: He's a third cousin of Theo van Gogh.
One more note on the article: While he offered to sell his toilet paper on his website, he didn't actually sell any, nor does he seem to have ever had the intention to. It was just a childish prank really.

This is the first time that a jail sentence (suspended or not) was handed out for an insult to Islam, btw. 99% of investigations are for insults to Christians' religious beliefs. And over 90% of these do not end up in court because the prosecution correctly notes that the insult was not suitable to endanger the peace. I'm not sure when the last jail sentence was handed down - the last non-suspended one was probably several decades ago - , but I know authors of Titanic satirical magazine have been sentenced to pay fines almost every single year of its existence for insulting Christians' religious beliefs. Really, it's quite a ridiculous law, and I'd prefer to see it gone.

Btw, here's the cover of Titanic's march issue (I wanted to print this in this thread anyways, and I was thinking about losing some words about this court case as well)


("Religionen im Vergleich" is religions compared. "Fakten Fakten Fakten" is related to an old feud with FOCUS news magazine that I won't got into detail about here. The four dicks belong to Christianity, Buddhism, Islam and Judaism. Whether this is to say that Muslims have small dicks, hence their inferiority complex, or to say that Christians are the biggest dickheads on the planet, or something else entirely, is of course in the eye of the beholder, as is the identification of these things as dicks. The note in the lower righthand corner says "Please Torch Here".)