Oilver Cromwell

[Democratic Hawk]

I don't usually like these polls, but this guy is worthy of debate

I, of course, vote Horrible Person. He was a puritanical intolerant, a perpetator of regicide (yes, he was supposedly a Christian yet he santioned the execution of a God-annointed king), who brutally suppressed those who stood in his way. Not to mention his acts against the Irish

I reckon even modern-day leftists would have fought for their King against this tyrant

A thoroughly Horrible Person (both inside and out!)

Dave

[Storebought]

I don't usually like these polls, but this guy is worthy of debate

I, of course, vote Horrible Person. He was a puritanical intolerant, a perpetator of regicide (yes, he was supposedly a Christian yet he santioned the execution of a God-annointed king), who brutally suppressed those who stood in his way. Not to mention his acts against the Irish

I reckon even modern-day leftists would have fought for their King against this tyrant

A thoroughly Horrible Person (both inside and out!)

Dave

What do you mean, "puritanical intolerant"? Cromwell legalized Judaism for the first time since the Middle Ages, and tolerated every sect of Christianity except Roman Catholicism.

Besides, all that Jacobian "divine-right" garbage was a French invention, anyway.

[Democratic Hawk]

Cromwell ... tolerated every sect of Christianity except Roman Catholicism.

There you have it, an intolerant

Dave

[Storebought]

Cromwell ... tolerated every sect of Christianity except Roman Catholicism.

There you have it, an intolerant

Dave

I like you, you're a good person, but it must be said: Be for real, Dave.

In the 17th century, Roman Catholicism was almost a "Religion of Peace" -- politically, it was abused by the likes of the Kings of France and the Habsburg dukes of Spain and Austria as a weapon to subjugate other Christians in the aggrandizement of their empires. The history of the Netherlands during the 17th century is just one big battle against the Catholic kings of Spain.

Cromwell knew fully well what happened to Protestant princes and peasants who lived in Austria, Hungary, France, etc., in the 16th century. Their lands were confiscated and their families murdered by the Inquisition.

Think about it: Cromwell was tolerant enough to extend freedom of worship to Jews, who for eons suffered pogroms under the "Christ Killer" and "Blood drinker" slurs. That alone tells me Cromwell was sincere in his desire for religious liberty for those religions that could tolerate the existence of others.

As for his Irish-murdering policy ... well, most Englishmen regardless of religion abused Ireland pretty shamelessly then. Don't forget: the policy of "planting" English settlers in the pale of Ireland began with the very Catholic Queen Mary.

[Democratic Hawk]

Fair enough, he seems he wasn't quite the doctrinaire Calvinist that I thought, and his disdain for Roman Catholicism stemmed from Catholic rulers in their persecution of Protestants. The one Catholic monarch, I believe, who did allow freedom of worship was Mary, Queen of Scots

I still believe that kingly authority is God-ordained and, thus, can't condone regicide. Still, what goes around comes around and Cromwell was posthumously executed

I think you can probably gather I am a royalist

Dave

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Guess

Like most controversial figures people's opinions of Cromwell generally say more about their background (in this case especially their religious background) than anything else.

That said, he's been slandered a hell of a lot over the past few hundred years, the worst stuff he did (like Drogheda) have been distorted and blown out of all proportion and the good stuff he did hasn't had nearly enough attention.

[Јas]

As for his Irish-murdering policy ... well, most Englishmen regardless of religion abused Ireland pretty shamelessly then. Don't forget: the policy of "planting" English settlers in the pale of Ireland began with the very Catholic Queen Mary.

Well, of course, I tend to take a dim view of anyone who has an "Irish-murdering policy".
(FTR: Planting did not begin in the Pale. The first plantation, that of Mary I, was in the counties of Laois and Offaly, and proved a failure.)

[afleitch]

I have a low opinion of him. He killed the King of Scotland and was a anti-Catholic puritanical b*stard.

[minionofmidas]

Jas - incorrect. The earliest plantings occurred under Edward I, in SW Pembrokeshire, the Gower, and the towns of Conway, Carnarvon, and Beaumaris.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Since when was Beaumaris big enough to count as a town?

[minionofmidas]

Since when was Beaumaris big enough to count as a town?

I don't think it has really grown since then.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Since when was Beaumaris big enough to count as a town?

I don't think it has really grown since then.

They never actually finished the castle

[GOP = Terrorists]

HP.

But republicans > monarchists.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Both, but on balance HP.

Not that I believe in the divine right bullsh!t and overthrowing the king was a good thing. But Cromwell's regime was even worse.

[minionofmidas]

Both, but on balance HP.

Not that I believe in the divine right bullsh!t and overthrowing the king was a good thing. But Cromwell's regime was even worse.

No, no it wasn't. Can't think of any measure that it was worse by. 18th and 19th century royalist propaganda still going strong I see.
Meanwhile, in rural working class areas "Oliver's days" was remembered as something of a Golden Age.

[MasterJedi]

Horrible Person

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Meanwhile, in rural working class areas "Oliver's days" was remembered as something of a Golden Age.

True that; still is up to a point (although I'm not aware of the phrase "Oliver's days" being used anymore; might still be out in the Fens actually. He's still a folk hero with the rural working class out there. I'm told that the phrase "Lord of the Fens" is still used occasionally. Strange area; but for the almost total lack of an organisation Labour would be *extremely* competative out there; even without one they somehow won enough seats to run the council for a while in the mid '90's and in 2005 Labour actually polled more votes in North East Cambridgeshire than Cambridge itself...).
As a slightly more general point, some of the most leftwing people (in the traditional/old fashioned English way) you'll ever meet can be found dominating local branch Labour parties in *real* rural areas (especially remote ones).

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Freedom fighter for opressing the irish.

[J. J.]

My biddest regret is that he wasn't hung while still alive.

[Speed of Sound]

Horrible Person

[Bono]

Well, i'm a Presbyterian, so he was obviously a freedom fighter.

[patrick1]

LOL.  I'll defer to the chorus of the Pogues Young Ned of the Hill:

A curse upon you Oliver Cromwell
You who raped our Motherland
I hope you're rotting down in hell
For the horrors that you sent
To our misfortunate forefathers
Whom you robbed of their birthright
"To hell or Connaught" may you burn in hell tonight

Nothing like Irish understatement;)

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Nothing like Irish understatement;)

"Irish Understatement" is an oxymoron and you know it

[patrick1]

Jas - incorrect. The earliest plantings occurred under Edward I, in SW Pembrokeshire, the Gower, and the towns of Conway, Carnarvon, and Beaumaris.

Well they were not plantings per se, but Anglo-Norman interference; on invitation from squabbling Gaelic Chieftains, begin around 1170 with Strongbow and Henry II.   The power of the Anglo-Hiberno-Norman lords ebbed and flowed for centuries thereafter but they always had a strong foothold in Leinster or specifically "the pale"  The Scots and Welsh should have known by then not to invite an English king to broker a dispute.   

[??????????]

Very Horrible Person