All US Presidents: Freedom Fighter or Horrible Person

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

George Washington - FF
John Adams - HP
Thomas Jefferson - FF
James Madison - FF
James Monroe - FF
John Q. Adams - HP
Andrew Jackson - HP
Martin Van Buren - HP
William Harrison - HP
John Tyler - HP
James Polk - HP
Zachary Taylor - HP
Millard Fillmore - HP
Franklin Pierce - HP
James Buchanan - HP
Abraham Lincoln - FF
Andrew Johnson - HP
Ulysses Grant - FF. Not a good president though
Rutherford Hayes - HP
James Garfield - FF. Just for the guy who shot him
Chester Arthur - FF
Grover Cleveland - HP
Benjamin Harrison - HP
William McKinley - HP
Theodore Roosevelt - FF
William Taft - HP
Woodrow Wilson - HP
Warren Harding - HP
Calvin Coolidge - HP
Herbert Hoover - FF. Not a good President though
Franklin Roosevelt - FF
Harry Truman - FF
Dwight Eisenhower - FF
John Kennedy - FF
Lyndon Johnson - HP
Richard Nixon - HP
Gerald Ford - He pardoned Nixon, so HP
Jimmy Carter - FF
Ronald Reagan - HP
George H. W. Bush - HP
Bill Clinton - FF
George W. Bush - HP

[phk]

George Washington - FF
John Adams - FF
Thomas Jefferson - FF
James Madison - FF
James Monroe - FF
John Q. Adams - FF
Andrew Jackson - HP
Martin Van Buren - HP
William Harrison - HP
John Tyler - HP
James Polk - HP
Zachary Taylor - HP
Millard Fillmore - HP
Franklin Pierce - HP
James Buchanan - HP
Abraham Lincoln - FF
Andrew Johnson - HP
Ulysses Grant - FF. Not a good president though
Rutherford Hayes - HP
James Garfield - FF.
Chester Arthur - FF
Grover Cleveland - HP
Benjamin Harrison - HP
William McKinley - HP
Theodore Roosevelt - FF
William Taft - HP
Woodrow Wilson - HP
Warren Harding - HP
Calvin Coolidge - FF
Herbert Hoover - FF
Franklin Roosevelt - FF
Harry Truman - FF
Dwight Eisenhower - FF
John Kennedy - FF
Lyndon Johnson - FF
Richard Nixon - HP
Gerald Ford - In the middle
Jimmy Carter - FF
Ronald Reagan - HP
George H. W. Bush - HP
Bill Clinton - FF
George W. Bush - HP

[Jacobtm]

George Washington - FF
John Adams - HP
Thomas Jefferson - FF
James Madison - FF
James Monroe - FF
John Q. Adams - HP
Andrew Jackson - FF
Martin Van Buren - FF
William Harrison - FF
John Tyler - FF
James Polk - HP
Zachary Taylor - HP
Millard Fillmore - FF
Franklin Pierce - FF
James Buchanan - HP
Abraham Lincoln - FF
Andrew Johnson - HP
Ulysses Grant - FF
Rutherford Hayes - HP
James Garfield - HP
Chester Arthur - FF
Grover Cleveland - HP
Benjamin Harrison - HP
Grover Cleveland - FF (The second term kicked ass)
William McKinley - HP
Theodore Roosevelt - FF
William Taft - FF (Anyone who can get up and give their seat to 3 ladies is definately not a HP)
Woodrow Wilson - FF
Warren Harding - FF
Calvin Coolidge - FF
Herbert Hoover - FF
Franklin Roosevelt - FF
Harry Truman - FF
Dwight Eisenhower - FF
John Kennedy - FF
Lyndon Johnson - HP (Knew 'Nam was hopeless, lied to the public)
Richard Nixon - (Watergate was just a demonstration of his firm belief in the right to privacy. 4th Ammendment Freedom Fighter.)
Gerald Ford - FF
Jimmy Carter - FF
Ronald Reagan - HP (Not really his fault, but when your senile, what is your fault?)
George H. W. Bush - HP
Bill Clinton - FF
George W. Bush - HP

[MODU]

In my book, all Presidents are FF's, even if they performed poorly.  It takes a lot of guts to be the leader of the nation, and that alone is enough to be known as a FF.

[© tweed]

George Washington - FF
John Adams - HP
Thomas Jefferson - HP
James Madison - FF
James Monroe - FF
John Q. Adams - HP
Andrew Jackson - FF
Martin Van Buren - FF
William Harrison - FF
John Tyler - HP
James Polk - HP
Zachary Taylor - HP
Millard Fillmore - HP
Franklin Pierce - HP
James Buchanan - HP
Abraham Lincoln - FF
Andrew Johnson - HP
Ulysses Grant - FF
Rutherford Hayes - FF
James Garfield - FF. Just for the guy who shot him
Chester Arthur - FF
Grover Cleveland - FF
Benjamin Harrison - FF
William McKinley - FF
Theodore Roosevelt - FF
William Taft - HP
Woodrow Wilson - FF
Warren Harding - FF
Calvin Coolidge - FF
Herbert Hoover - HP
Franklin Roosevelt - FF
Harry Truman - FF
Dwight Eisenhower - FF
John Kennedy - FF
Lyndon Johnson - HP
Richard Nixon - HP
Gerald Ford - FF
Jimmy Carter - FF
Ronald Reagan - FF
George H. W. Bush - HP
Bill Clinton - FF
George W. Bush - HP

[minionofmidas]

George Washington - HP (slaveholder)
John Adams - HP (ally of Hamilton's)
Thomas Jefferson - HP (slaveholder)
James Madison - HP (see above)
James Monroe - HP (Arch-HP)
John Q. Adams - HP (pimped for the tsar)
Andrew Jackson - HP (slaveholder)
Martin Van Buren - FF
William Harrison - HP (indian slayer)
John Tyler - HP (slaveholder, traitor)
James Polk - HP (slaveholder)
Zachary Taylor - HP (slaveholder. My instincts tell me FF actually)
Millard Fillmore - HP (corrupt)
Franklin Pierce - HP (corrupt)
James Buchanan - HP (corrupt and incompetent)
Abraham Lincoln - FF
Andrew Johnson - FF (despite horrible errors of judgement)
Ulysses Grant - HP (corrupt and incompetent. Has some saving graces, esp. in Indian administration)
Rutherford Hayes - FF
James Garfield - HP (Indian land thief)
Chester Arthur - HP (corrupt)
Grover Cleveland - HP (economic rightwinger, has some saving graces though, notably as an anti-imperialist)
Benjamin Harrison - HP (see above)
William McKinley - HP (Arch-HP)
Theodore Roosevelt - HP (imperialist. Quite fucked up character. Spoiled brat)
William Taft - HP (economic rightwinger, incompetent)
Woodrow Wilson - HP (post-stroke. Plus, racist)
Warren Harding - HP (corrupt and incompetent)
Calvin Coolidge - HP (economic rightwinger)
Herbert Hoover - FF (despite horrible errors of judgement)
Franklin Roosevelt - HP (spoiled brat. Great President though)
Harry Truman - FF
Dwight Eisenhower - FF (just for Little Rock)
John Kennedy - HP (spoiled brat)
Lyndon Johnson - FF
Richard Nixon - HP (Arch-HP)
Gerald Ford - HP (played football without a helmet, pardoned Nixon)
Jimmy Carter - HP (layed the foundations for what came later to be mistermed the Reagan Revolution)
Ronald Reagan - HP (economic rightwinger, incompetent)
Not judging the next three.

[minionofmidas]

In my book, all Presidents are FF's, even if they performed poorly.  It takes a lot of guts to be the leader of the nation, and that alone is enough to be known as a FF.

It takes a lot of wickedness to rise to the very top in any system, and that alone is almost enough to be known as a HP.
Which also explains why so there are so few FF ratings in my list.

[Jacobtm]

Andrew Johnson - FF (despite horrible errors of judgement)
Rutherford Hayes - FF
Theodore Roosevelt - HP (imperialist. Quite fucked up character. Spoiled brat)

There's something seriously wrong with someone who labels TR (along with Jefferson, Washington, JFK, and FDR) below Andrew Johnson and Rutherford Hayes...

If you think Jefferson, Washington, JFK and FDR were horrible people, how can you justify listing LBJ as a Freedom Fighter? Being spoiled makes you a Horrible Person, but prolonging a hopeless war and getting 50,000 Americans killed doesn't?

[Jake]

George Washington - FF
John Adams - HP
Thomas Jefferson - HP
James Madison - HP
James Monroe - FF
John Q. Adams - HP
Andrew Jackson - FF
Martin Van Buren - HP
William Harrison - HP
John Tyler - FF
James Polk - FF
Zachary Taylor - HP
Millard Fillmore - HP
Franklin Pierce - HP
James Buchanan - FF
Abraham Lincoln - HP
Andrew Johnson - HP
Ulysses Grant - FF
Rutherford Hayes - HP
James Garfield - HP
Chester Arthur - HP
Grover Cleveland - FF
Benjamin Harrison - HP
William McKinley - FF
Theodore Roosevelt - FF
William Taft - HP
Woodrow Wilson - HP
Warren Harding - FF
Calvin Coolidge - FF
Herbert Hoover - FF
Franklin Roosevelt - FF
Harry Truman - FF
Dwight Eisenhower - FF
John Kennedy - FF
Lyndon Johnson - HP
Richard Nixon - FF
Gerald Ford - HP
Jimmy Carter - HP
Ronald Reagan - FF
George H. W. Bush - FF
Bill Clinton - HP
George W. Bush -FF

[Emsworth]

George Washington - FF
John Adams - HP (Alien and Sedition Acts)
Thomas Jefferson - FF
James Madison - FF
James Monroe - FF
John Q. Adams - HP (Nationalism)
Andrew Jackson - FF
Martin Van Buren - FF
William Harrison - HP (Whig)
John Tyler - FF
James Polk - FF
Zachary Taylor - HP (Whig policies)
Millard Fillmore - HP (Whig policies)
Franklin Pierce - FF
James Buchanan - FF
Abraham Lincoln - HP (Dictator)
Andrew Johnson - FF
Ulysses Grant - HP (Incompetent)
Rutherford Hayes - HP (Fraud)
James Garfield - FF
Chester Arthur - HP (Immigration)
Grover Cleveland - FF
Benjamin Harrison - HP (Excessive spending)
William McKinley - HP (Imperialism)
Theodore Roosevelt - HP ("Progressive" policies)
William Taft - FF
Woodrow Wilson - HP (Racist, violated civil liberties)
Warren Harding - FF
Calvin Coolidge - FF
Herbert Hoover - HP (Socialist)
Franklin Roosevelt - HP (Socialist dictator)
Harry Truman - HP (Bad domestic policies)
Dwight Eisenhower - HP (Bad domestic policies)
John Kennedy - HP (Bad domestic policies)
Lyndon Johnson - HP (Great Society)
Richard Nixon - HP (Socialist)
Gerald Ford - HP (Economic policies)
Jimmy Carter - HP (Economic policies)
Ronald Reagan - FF
George H. W. Bush - FF
Bill Clinton - FF
George W. Bush - HP (Economic, foreign, and domestic policies)

[© tweed]

If 'imperialism' made McKinley a horrible person, how is Polk a freedom fighter?

[Jacobtm]

Andrew Jackson - FF
Abraham Lincoln - HP (Dictator)

Theodore Roosevelt - HP ("Progressive" policies)
William Taft - FF

Herbert Hoover - HP (Socialist)
Bill Clinton - FF

Lincoln was a Dictator and Jackson wasn't?

Taft prosecuted many more "monopolies" in 4 years than TR did in nearly 8. He also really helped implement lots of the "progressive" policies that TR set up.

Hoover's a Socialist and Clinton wasn't?

[Emsworth]

If 'imperialism' made McKinley a horrible person, how is Polk a freedom fighter?

Polk introduced an independent treasury and reduced tariffs. McKinley, on the other hand, supported higher tariffs.

Furthermore, the effects of Polk's imperialism were positive, while those of McKinley's imperialism were negative.

Lincoln was a Dictator and Jackson wasn't?

Lincoln imposed martial law, suspended the writ of habeas corpus even though only Congress is authorized to do so, exiled political opponents, shut down newspapers that disagreed with him, closed the legislature of Maryland, and allegedly ordered the arrest of a judge for making a decision that he did not agree with. Jackson, if I recall correctly did none of these things.

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The number of monopolies prosecuted is hardly a definitive measure of a President's progressivism.

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Yes.

[Beet]

George Washington - FF
John Adams - HP (Alien and Sedition Acts)
Thomas Jefferson - FF
James Madison - FF
James Monroe - FF
John Q. Adams - HP (Should never have been president to begin with)
Andrew Jackson - HP (Supreme Court/Indian Removal; Economic policies)
Martin Van Buren - FF
William Harrison - Can't say (lean FF)
John Tyler - FF
James Polk - FF
Zachary Taylor - FF
Millard Fillmore - HP (incompetent)
Franklin Pierce - HP (incompetent)
James Buchanan - HP (incompetent)
Abraham Lincoln - FF
Andrew Johnson - HP (resisting Reconstruction)
Ulysses Grant - FF
Rutherford Hayes - FF
James Garfield - Can't say
Chester Arthur - HP (immigration)
Grover Cleveland - FF
Benjamin Harrison - FF
William McKinley - HP (reactionary)
Theodore Roosevelt - FF
William Taft - FF
Woodrow Wilson - FF
Warren Harding - HP (corrupt)
Calvin Coolidge - FF
Herbert Hoover - HP (contractionary)
Franklin Roosevelt - FF
Harry Truman - FF
Dwight Eisenhower - FF
John Kennedy - FF
Lyndon Johnson - HP (Vietnam; ignoring Nathan Glazer)
Richard Nixon - HP (reactionary)
Gerald Ford - FF
Jimmy Carter - FF
Ronald Reagan - FF
George H. W. Bush - FF
Bill Clinton - FF
George W. Bush - HP (Economic, foreign, and domestic policies)

[Emsworth]

Andrew Jackson - HP (Supreme Court/Indian Removal; Economic policies)

Why does everyone seem to believe that Andrew Jackson defied the Supreme Court on Indian Removal? It was the state of Georgia that defied the Supreme Court, not President Jackson.

[Beet]

Andrew Jackson - HP (Supreme Court/Indian Removal; Economic policies)

Why does everyone seem to believe that Andrew Jackson defied the Supreme Court on Indian Removal? It was the state of Georgia that defied the Supreme Court, not President Jackson.

Jackson callously used Georgia's defiance to pressure the Cherokees into an unequal "treaty".

[jokerman]

George Washington - FF
John Adams - Undecided, leaning FF
Thomas Jefferson - HP
James Madison - FF
James Monroe - FF
John Q. Adams -HP
Andrew Jackson - FF
Martin Van Buren - FF
William Harrison - HP
John Tyler - HP
James Polk - FF
Zachary Taylor - HP
Millard Fillmore - HP
Franklin Pierce - HP
James Buchanan - HP
Abraham Lincoln - Undecided
Andrew Johnson - FF
Ulysses Grant - HP
Rutherford Hayes - HP (stole the election)
James Garfield - don't know enough, I guess HP
Chester Arthur - HP
Grover Cleveland - HP (not so much at first)
Benjamin Harrison - HP
William McKinley - HP (mainly because he denied WJB Presidency)
Theodore Roosevelt - FF (massive)
William Taft - HP
Woodrow Wilson - FF
Warren Harding - HP
Calvin Coolidge - HP
Herbert Hoover - Undecided (horrible policies but good person)
Franklin Roosevelt - FF
Harry Truman - FF
Dwight Eisenhower - FF (relatively indifferent to him, overall)
John Kennedy - FF
Lyndon Johnson - FF
Richard Nixon - lean HP
Gerald Ford - lean HP
Jimmy Carter - FF (though foreign policy is not so good)
Ronald Reagan - HP (demagouge)
George H. W. Bush - HP
Bill Clinton - FF
George W. Bush - HP

[Jacobtm]

Lincoln was a Dictator and Jackson wasn't?

Lincoln imposed martial law, suspended the writ of habeas corpus even though only Congress is authorized to do so, exiled political opponents, shut down newspapers that disagreed with him, closed the legislature of Maryland, and allegedly ordered the arrest of a judge for making a decision that he did not agree with. Jackson, if I recall correctly did none of these things.

Jackson did do quite a few Dictatorly things, but I see your point that Lincoln did more than Jackson.

However, you said that one reason you supported Polk's imperialism but not McKinley's was that Polk's imperalism was beneficial. Do you not think, overall, Lincoln's actions were beneficial?

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The number of monopolies prosecuted is hardly a definitive measure of a President's progressivism.

The monopolies thing was just something that came to my head first. To quote the Wikipedia article on Taft:
"Taft fought for the prosecution of trusts (eventually breaking up 44)[citations needed], further strengthened the Interstate Commerce Commission, established a postal savings bank and a parcel post system, expanded the civil service and promoted the enactment of two amendments to the Constitution. The 16th Amendment authorized the federal government to tax incomes; the 17th Amendment, ratified in 1913, mandated the direct election of senators by the people, replacing the previous system whereby they were selected by state legislatures. Taft also signed the The Organic Act of the Department of Labor, which created the United States Department of Labor."
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Howard_Taft#Presidency_1909-1913
 

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Yes.

Could you expand on that?

[Emsworth]

However, you said that one reason you supported Polk's imperialism but not McKinley's was that Polk's imperalism was beneficial. Do you not think, overall, Lincoln's actions were beneficial?

Most of Lincoln's actions were not beneficial, or even necessary. But more importantly, Lincoln's actions were grossly unconstitutional.

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Roosevelt believed that the federal government (the executive in particular) was to act as an all-knowing, all-benevolent nanny to the people. He supported federal child labor laws, federal minimum wage laws, and extensive business regulations. In Taft's words, Roosevelt believed that "he is to play the part of a universal Providence and set all things right, and that anything that in his judgment will help the people he ought to do."

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Yes.

Could you expand on that?

Hoover supported federal farm controls, proposed a federal Department of Education, signed the Norris LaGuardia Act, and so forth.

Clinton was, on the other hand, was moderate relative to other politicians in his era, at least after 1994.

[opebo]

George Washington - HP
John Adams - HP
Thomas Jefferson - FF
James Madison - HP
James Monroe - HP
John Q. Adams - HP
Andrew Jackson - HP
Martin Van Buren - HP
William Harrison - HP
John Tyler - HP
James Polk - HP
Zachary Taylor - HP
Millard Fillmore - HP
Franklin Pierce - HP
James Buchanan - HP
Abraham Lincoln - FF
Andrew Johnson - HP
Ulysses Grant - HP
Rutherford Hayes - HP
James Garfield - HP
Chester Arthur - HP
Grover Cleveland - HP
Benjamin Harrison - HP
William McKinley - HP
Theodore Roosevelt - HP
William Taft - HP
Woodrow Wilson - HP+
Warren Harding - HP
Calvin Coolidge - HP
Herbert Hoover - HP
Franklin Roosevelt - FF
Harry Truman - HP
Dwight Eisenhower - HP
John Kennedy - FF
Lyndon Johnson - FF
Richard Nixon - HP
Gerald Ford - HP
Jimmy Carter - HP
Ronald Reagan - HP
George H. W. Bush - HP
Bill Clinton - HP
George W. Bush - HP

In general US presidents are, unsurprisingly, horrible people.

[minionofmidas]

Andrew Johnson - FF (despite horrible errors of judgement)
Rutherford Hayes - FF
Theodore Roosevelt - HP (imperialist. Quite fucked up character. Spoiled brat)

There's something seriously wrong with someone who labels TR (along with Jefferson, Washington, JFK, and FDR) below Andrew Johnson and Rutherford Hayes...

Andrew Johnson was a politician of the common man, a white trash/mountain man challenging the slaveholding elite's hold over Tennessee, and the only president in American History (with the arguable exception of Harry Truman) to have known urban poverty. (His father was a porter, he himself was a tailor.)
Sure his post-1865 politics sucked, and he wasn't entirely un-corrupt, but that's just not the point.
Hayes was an active abolutionist in the 1850s.

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The Vietnam War is essentially a policy position LBJ inherited from Kennedy. Plus, LBJ gets far too bad a press on here. Of course he too was a lieing old beast ... but he had style. My kind of style. And then there's Great Society and all that (The 1964 Civil Rights Act might be another Kennedy inheritance, but anything beyond that is Johnson's very own).

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I disapprove of a lot of U.S Presidents without thinking that they are actually "horrible people". What do I put?

[DanielX]

A * indicates someone I would have voted for:

Founding Fathers (all FF's despite their gaping flaws):
*George Washington - FF, of course
John Adams - FF
*Thomas Jefferson - FF
*James Madison - FF
*James Monroe - FF

The Lousy Years:
*John Q. Adams - FF, but very narrowly
Andrew Jackson - HP
*Martin Van Buren - FF
William Harrison - HP
John Tyler - HP
James Polk - HP
Zachary Taylor - HP
Millard Fillmore - HP
Franklin Pierce - HP
James Buchanan - HP!!!

(as you can see, my opinion of the Presidents between the 1820s and 1850s, with the exception of Van Buren, is low).

Civil War and Beyond:
*Abraham Lincoln - FF
Andrew Johnson - HP
*Ulysses Grant - FF. Not a good president though.
Rutherford Hayes - HP
*James Garfield - FF, barely
*Chester Arthur - FF
*Grover Cleveland - FF
Benjamin Harrison - FF
*William McKinley - FF

(all decent, except Andy Johnson and Rutherfraud Hayes).

Early 20th Century:
Theodore Roosevelt - FF, just barely
*William Taft - FF
Woodrow Wilson - HP, big time
*Warren Harding - lean HP
*Calvin Coolidge - FF
*Herbert Hoover - FF, narrowly

(okay but none really stand out. Wilson drags the whole period down...)

Middle Years:
Franklin Roosevelt - tough call... a tiny smidgeon FF
Harry Truman - FF
*Dwight Eisenhower - FF, big time
John Kennedy - narrowly HP, although he had his good points
Lyndon Johnson - HP
*Richard Nixon - HP
*Gerald Ford - FF, not enough time to seriously screw up
Jimmy Carter - HP

(Mixed. Ike's cool, Carter isn't, everyone else files in between).

Modern Era:
*Ronald Reagan - FF, big tome
*George H. W. Bush - FF, narrowly
Bill Clinton - HP
*George W. Bush - FF, narrowly

(Overall, okay. Reagan brings the category way up).

[nini2287]

George Washington - FF
John Adams - HP
Thomas Jefferson - FF
James Madison - FF
James Monroe - FF
John Q. Adams - HP
Andrew Jackson - HP
Martin Van Buren - FF
William Harrison - FF
John Tyler - HP
James Polk - FF
Zachary Taylor - FF
Millard Fillmore - HP
Franklin Pierce - HP
James Buchanan - HP
Abraham Lincoln - Both
Andrew Johnson - HP
Ulysses Grant - HP
Rutherford Hayes - HP
James Garfield - FF
Chester Arthur - FF
Grover Cleveland - FF
Benjamin Harrison - HP
William McKinley - FF
Theodore Roosevelt - HP
William Taft - HP
Woodrow Wilson - HP
Warren Harding - HP
Calvin Coolidge - FF
Herbert Hoover - HP
Franklin Roosevelt - HP
Harry Truman - FF
Dwight Eisenhower - FF
John Kennedy - FF
Lyndon Johnson - HP
Richard Nixon - HP (FF until Watergate, however)
Gerald Ford - FF
Jimmy Carter - HP
Ronald Reagan - HP
George H. W. Bush - FF
Bill Clinton - FF
George W. Bush - HP

[minionofmidas]

I disapprove of a lot of U.S Presidents without thinking that they are actually "horrible people". What do I put?

HP, of course.