Anti-Gay Marraige Amendment Passes in WI
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  Anti-Gay Marraige Amendment Passes in WI
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Author Topic: Anti-Gay Marraige Amendment Passes in WI  (Read 4298 times)
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2006, 05:38:00 PM »
« edited: January 10, 2014, 03:04:47 PM by True Federalist »

I've got it if you want it. But maybe you dont deserve it Wink

Let's hear your twisted justification of your lifestyle, then we'll take your exact mode of argument and use it to explain away every single named sin in the bible, including adultery, lying, incest, murder, greed...etc, etc, etc.

Heck the bible is not even uniform on its laws against incest...Abraham's wife is explicitly stated to be his half-sister.  The laws against incest didn't come along until the Law of Moses.

Yet, in the area of homosexuality, the bible has always been consistent:  
1) The very first marriage in the bible was between a man and a woman (Genesis chapter 4)…in fact, the only examples of marriage in the bible are heterosexual.
2) Sodom was condemned for its sexual perversion of homosexuality PRIOR to the Law of Moses.
3) The Law of Moses forbid homosexual activity and considered it the act of pagan nations.
4) The New Testament names Sodom as an example of sexual perversion. (Jude 7)
5) The New Testament reiterates the Law of Moses’ opinion that homosexuality is the act of pagans.  (Romans chapter 1)
6) The New Testament only accepts sex in the context of a marriage between one man and one woman.  Anything else (adultery, fornication, incest, bestiality, homosexuality, visual lusting, prostitution) outside of that context is considered a sin.  In fact, the New Testament's context of moral sex is exactly the same as the original picture of sex between Adam and Eve - one man and one woman in marriage.

You are simply attempting to explain away the verses which condemn your lifestyle. And since you lack any positive biblical references to homosexuality, you’re basically saying the bible is silent in the area of homosexuality while naming very other sexual combination….as if God himself was ignorant of homosexuality while explicitly naming bestiality, fornication, prostitution, incest, and adultery (which you have denied is a sin even though Jesus explicitly dealt with it).

Why don't you have opebo read you the bible?  At least he doesn't attempt to distort it.
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afleitch
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« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2006, 05:45:52 PM »

You seem scared and defensive jmfcst. Perhaps you don't like people who try to give you another interpretation of Christ's message.

But here you go:

The most widely used scripture used to denounce homosexuality is Romans 1:26-27:

"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions: for their women exchanged the natural use for that which is against nature. And in the same way also the men abandoned the natural use of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error."

Now, the key aspect about the letters of Saint Paul is that we only get to hear one side of the correspondence. Most of his letters, perhaps even all of them were written in response to correspondence that was sent to him by the church to which he wrote. This was of course at a time before what we would now consider 'organised' religion and matters of doctrine and practice were not set in stone.

First lets turn to what Paul says earlier. In Romans 1:25, immaediately before the passage quoted above, Saint Paul says:

For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature and not the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

So if you put Saint Paul's "condemnation" of homosexuals into context by relating back to 1:25, which was referring to to idolatry, you will find that he was not attacking monogamous relationships, but rather was condemning idol worship and related temple practices which involved prostitution and fornication among people of both sexes and with people of both sexes. (History of this period is littered with examples)

He was therefore not attacking homosexuals in a relationship but was in fact condemning the same sin condemned in the Ten Commandments, that of adultery and idolatry. You with me? 
 
In I Corinthians 6:9 and I Timothy 1:9-10, often used to back up Romans you will see exactly where the main problem in the translation of 'arsenokoites' lies.

''The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. So do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the realm of God."

"Law is not made for a righteous person but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and fornicators and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound (healthy) teaching."

Now what does 'arsenokoites' mean?

The Bible has been reproduced more than any other book in the past 2000 years and early copies do survive. Not only were single words translated differently throughout time, but so too were whole passages and the context was often lost. The word 'arsenokoites' was added to, extended by prefix or suffix to change it's meaning over time and these changes can be checked against each other by comparison. When we translate directly the surviving 1st Century examples of Corinthians and Timothy into English, looking at the word 'arsenokoites' and the words surrounding it we are given this translation in Corinthians:

'nor the traders in homosexual slaves. ' And in Timothy,

'those who trade in homosexual slavery. '

Seems reasonable to me. It's a condemnation of slave traders and prostitution. It is not a direct condemnation of homosexuals. If condemnation of homosexuals or homosexuality was intended, they would have used the more common and more exact word, 'homophilia.' But they did not.

And so it continues, right through to the 700's when Greek was surpassed by Latin. There are numerous examples  here: http://www.jeramyt.org/gay/arsenok.htm in which all bar 1, translate 'arsenokoites' to mean 'homosexual slave trading,' which is consistent with the condemnation of prostitution to be found throughout the Bible. Somewhere in the 1300 years since, the meaning has been warped and twisted, by intent? Who is to say. But what can be said is that subsequent translations are NOT compatable with the Scripture as it was originally written.

-------------------------

I really have nothing else to add to this. But I do want you to think about it. This is not my argument, it is one that has cropped up in scholarly debate.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2006, 06:59:51 PM »

You seem scared and defensive jmfcst. Perhaps you don't like people who try to give you another interpretation of Christ's message.

Another interpretation of Christ’s message?  That’s hilarious coming from you, since you claim adultery is not a sin even though Christ explicitly names it as such.

---

Now, the key aspect about the letters of Saint Paul is that we only get to hear one side of the correspondence.

What? NONE of the 27 letters of the New Testament include the other side of the correspondence!  These men wrote with authority and their authority is NOT dependent upon the opinion of other side of the conversation.  And what they wrote still applies to us today since we are under the same covenant as they were.

---

First lets turn to what Paul says earlier. In Romans 1:25, immaediately before the passage quoted above, Saint Paul says:

For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature and not the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

So if you put Saint Paul's "condemnation" of homosexuals into context by relating back to 1:25, which was referring to idolatry

Is there an echo in here?...

3) The Law of Moses forbid homosexual activity and considered it the act of pagan nations…
5) The New Testament reiterates the Law of Moses’ opinion that homosexuality is the act of pagans.  (Romans chapter 1)

Obviously Paul linked to idolatry, for that is how God presented it to Moses:

The context of idolatry…Lev 18:3 “You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices…”

The commandment against homosexuality: Lev 18:22 “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.”

The restatement of the context of idolatry: Lev 18:24-25 “Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants.”

Therefore, it should be no surprise that Paul also wrappers homosexuality (or even sexual immorality in general) in the context of idolatry, for that is exactly what it is – it is the worship of creation (in this case, a sexual partner) over the Creator (God).  It is placing your desires over your willingness to obey God.

---

In addition, you still have the problem that the ONLY proper context for sex stated in the bible is heterosexual marriage.

Also in addition, you still have the problem that the New Testament judges the actions of Sodom as sexual perversion, thereby interpreting the actions of Sodom and pulling the example of Sodom into the realm of the New Testament.  So…what was going on in Sodom was sexual perversion and the only sexual activity attributed to Sodom was:

Gen 19:4-5 All the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

The whole interpretation of that act is summed up in Jude 7: “In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.”
 
So, have fun suffering the punishment of eternal fire.  Your blood is on your own head.

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afleitch
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« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2006, 07:22:46 PM »


So, have fun suffering the punishment of eternal fire.  Your blood is on your own head.


I'll keep a seat for you Smiley
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MODU
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« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2006, 07:53:38 PM »



Can we not slip into another Bible one-upmanship please?
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jmfcst
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« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2006, 09:33:24 PM »


So, have fun suffering the punishment of eternal fire.  Your blood is on your own head.


I'll keep a seat for you Smiley

No, I have repented of sexual immorality and all other sins named in the New Testament.  I only need to wash my feet whenever I slip.  I don't play games with sin and try to deceive myself.  The New Testament repeats many times that the sexual immoral will NOT make it to heaven.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2006, 09:55:18 PM »

when did the state of wisconsin become so hateful and intolerant?

wisconsin has a proud progressive tradtion.  oh well.  now they can join mississippi and the like in passing  hate-filled legislation.

Some Americans don't define "progress" by condoning immorality.

go uck a cock
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« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2006, 10:08:22 PM »

The Wisconsin state assembly has been a running joke for years, even tommy Thompson told jokes about them.
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opebo
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« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2006, 10:29:08 PM »

And many don't care about what you think. That's the joy of being a free country.

The US is not a free country, Afleitch.
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Inverted Things
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« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2006, 11:42:12 AM »

Forget the war on terror.

The Republicans and Democrats are fighting an altogether different war: The war on love.

From the government's perspective, marriage is simply a way of conferring benefits to two adults for choosing to commit themselves to one another. Why the gender of the people in question matter is beyond me.
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