Can you be a liberal if you live in a McMansion?

[dazzleman]

People who go around putting others down are just covering for their own inadequacies.

And to answer the original question, yes, you can be a liberal and live in a McMansion.  It happens all the time.

very true.

i still find it funny that an 'owner' cant gather up enough resources to move his ass out of 'the bad place'.

there is a lot about opebo that doesnt add up.

That's because he's not an owner.  He's no different than a welfare recipient, except that his source of welfare is private rather than public.

He can't wait for his parents to die, so he can inherit their supposedly vast fortune, since now they have him on a very limited income, so limited that he can't even live all year in a 3rd world country without coming home to mooch for several months a year.

My guess is that they don't have half the money he says they do.  And when they die, they'll probably have it tied up, so he's not any better off than he is now.  Or if they're smart, they'll leave it to the Cat Foundation.

SamSpade is a much better example of a person from a wealthy family who has done something constructive with it, and doesn't put down other people who weren't born into that situation.

[WalterMitty]

People who go around putting others down are just covering for their own inadequacies.

And to answer the original question, yes, you can be a liberal and live in a McMansion.  It happens all the time.

very true.

i still find it funny that an 'owner' cant gather up enough resources to move his ass out of 'the bad place'.

there is a lot about opebo that doesnt add up.

That's because he's not an owner.  He's no different than a welfare recipient, except that his source of welfare is private rather than public.

He can't wait for his parents to die, so he can inherit their supposedly vast fortune, since now they have him on a very limited income, so limited that he can't even live all year in a 3rd world country without coming home to mooch for several months a year.

My guess is that they don't have half the money he says they do.  And when they die, they'll probably have it tied up, so he's not any better off than he is now.  Or if they're smart, they'll leave it to the Cat Foundation.

SamSpade is a much better example of a person from a wealthy family who has done something constructive with it, and doesn't put down other people who weren't born into that situation.

yeah, d-man, i have doubts too.  ive lived long enough to know that most people who brag about having money usually never have as much as they claim.

regardless. i dont think being a landlord in podunk missouri qualifies you as a member of the elite.

im curious as to how opebo is taxed.  it is obvious that mommy and daddy give him a yearly sum, which he pisses away in a few months in thailand and then must return home until the next annual payment is made.  isnt there an $11,000 annual gift limit before uncle sam takes his share?

[Sam Spade]

Wow, mitty is sort of pwning opebo in this thread.  Highly amusing, but not surprising.

Anyway, this year is sort of the exception; I'm going to have to be "sort of" living off my parents a little the next three years starting in September when I go to law school.  It's a $150,000 investment, but one they are quite happy to do. 

I've been able to save some money this year from working, so it shouldn't be too bad.  Working during law school would be hell, and I'm looking forward to keeping my non-school debt status that I've maintained through undergrad and grad school.

So far, the best I've been able to pull out of a law school in terms of merit scholarship is $18,000 a year, roughly half tuition not counting living expenses.  But if get into some of the even better law schools I've applied to, I probably won't get any money.

It's certainly not quite like pissing money off in Thailand, that's for sure. 

Mitty, I'm guessing that opebo's parents are providing him either a flat yearly sum from some type of trust fund.  The way the tax laws work, he would have to pay income taxes (SS and Medicare aren't taxed in this), but his sum could be a percentage of the profits or income per year and wouldn't therefore be subject to any gift tax.  Of course, they might be paying the income tax as well.  There might also be some capital gains from it.

With regards to my trust stuff, etc., it requires a CPA to do it.  I have to fill out a 1040 (not 1040A or 1040EZ), along with Schedule C and D, iirc. He does my taxes (in combination with what I make in my salaried position) and then does the trust stuff in combination with my parents' taxes.  My parents are nice enough to pay for my tax preparation in total, which would cost a few hundred dollars otherwise.

Actually, opebo's parents and mine are in somewhat similar businesses, so I think my guess as to what's going on is fairly accurate.

[opebo]

ok, and you think 'workers' are beneath you?

if we took a random survey of 100 people and told them your lifestyle, 99 would think you were a pathetic human being.

i laugh everytime you try to put someone down.

I never put anyone down, WalterMitty, nor do I consider anyone beneath me.  I merely take an honest look at the social heirarchy and the worker's position in it.

yeah, d-man, i have doubts too.  ive lived long enough to know that most people who brag about having money usually never have as much as they claim.

I have never bragged, fellows.  I have only noted that I do not have to suffer the indignity of toil. 

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Nor have I ever suggested so - in fact I believe I have specified very much the opposite in several posts.  The point is, of course, that we are enormously better off that those who must toil, though we remain completely without influence.

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Yes, but that is per child, per parent.  So each parent can give you the above mentioned amount.  Also I have another small source of income that comes from some properties that were held in a company of which I was made ostensible owner years ago (many things were put in and out of my and my brother's names, and various uncles and aunt's names at different times.. for various reasons from lawsuits to union troubles).

As to taxes, their accountant takes care of that, and I can't say I know the details.. but as Sam Spade notes none of it seems to be subject to social security type taxes.

[Rin-chan]

According to your definition of McMansions, there is a giant cluster of them in my town (giant as in it takes 20 minutes to get from my house to this cluster and it takes atleast 20 minutes to get through the cluster).

I know a really a few left-leaning independents that live in there.

So, sure.

Rin-chan

[memphis]

People who go around putting others down are just covering for their own inadequacies.

And to answer the original question, yes, you can be a liberal and live in a McMansion.  It happens all the time.

very true.

i still find it funny that an 'owner' cant gather up enough resources to move his ass out of 'the bad place'.

there is a lot about opebo that doesnt add up.

That's because he's not an owner.  He's no different than a welfare recipient, except that his source of welfare is private rather than public.

He can't wait for his parents to die, so he can inherit their supposedly vast fortune, since now they have him on a very limited income, so limited that he can't even live all year in a 3rd world country without coming home to mooch for several months a year.

My guess is that they don't have half the money he says they do.  And when they die, they'll probably have it tied up, so he's not any better off than he is now.  Or if they're smart, they'll leave it to the Cat Foundation.

SamSpade is a much better example of a person from a wealthy family who has done something constructive with it, and doesn't put down other people who weren't born into that situation.

So, Dazzleman and WalterMitty, you guys ready to support inheritance taxes now and make Opebo work for a living?

[dazzleman]

People who go around putting others down are just covering for their own inadequacies.

And to answer the original question, yes, you can be a liberal and live in a McMansion.  It happens all the time.

very true.

i still find it funny that an 'owner' cant gather up enough resources to move his ass out of 'the bad place'.

there is a lot about opebo that doesnt add up.

That's because he's not an owner.  He's no different than a welfare recipient, except that his source of welfare is private rather than public.

He can't wait for his parents to die, so he can inherit their supposedly vast fortune, since now they have him on a very limited income, so limited that he can't even live all year in a 3rd world country without coming home to mooch for several months a year.

My guess is that they don't have half the money he says they do.  And when they die, they'll probably have it tied up, so he's not any better off than he is now.  Or if they're smart, they'll leave it to the Cat Foundation.

SamSpade is a much better example of a person from a wealthy family who has done something constructive with it, and doesn't put down other people who weren't born into that situation.

So, Dazzleman and WalterMitty, you guys ready to support inheritance taxes now and make Opebo work for a living?

We already have inheritance taxes, but they can be successfully evaded by the very rich who set up irrevocable trusts for their heirs while they are still alive.

It is then the upper middle class -- who cannot run the risk of giving up control effectively of large chunks of their money while they are still alive, or who have their wealth tied up in a business -- that end up paying inheritance taxes.

Of course, if anybody could make me support inheritance taxes, it would be opebo.  But rest assured that if his parents are really as rich as he says they are (doubtful), they have already put in place a mechanism that will keep them from paying it.

[opebo]

People who go around putting others down are just covering for their own inadequacies.

And to answer the original question, yes, you can be a liberal and live in a McMansion.  It happens all the time.

very true.

i still find it funny that an 'owner' cant gather up enough resources to move his ass out of 'the bad place'.

there is a lot about opebo that doesnt add up.

That's because he's not an owner.  He's no different than a welfare recipient, except that his source of welfare is private rather than public.

He can't wait for his parents to die, so he can inherit their supposedly vast fortune, since now they have him on a very limited income, so limited that he can't even live all year in a 3rd world country without coming home to mooch for several months a year.

My guess is that they don't have half the money he says they do.  And when they die, they'll probably have it tied up, so he's not any better off than he is now.  Or if they're smart, they'll leave it to the Cat Foundation.

SamSpade is a much better example of a person from a wealthy family who has done something constructive with it, and doesn't put down other people who weren't born into that situation.

So, Dazzleman and WalterMitty, you guys ready to support inheritance taxes now and make Opebo work for a living?

We already have inheritance taxes, but they can be successfully evaded by the very rich who set up irrevocable trusts for their heirs while they are still alive.

It is then the upper middle class -- who cannot run the risk of giving up control effectively of large chunks of their money while they are still alive, or who have their wealth tied up in a business -- that end up paying inheritance taxes.

Of course, if anybody could make me support inheritance taxes, it would be opebo.  But rest assured that if his parents are really as rich as he says they are (doubtful), they have already put in place a mechanism that will keep them from paying it.

Good lord man, the exemptions are huge - something like several millions at this point I believe.  I know they were one million per parent before Bush's tax cuts began to be implemented.  In any case the old creatures do have hundreds of thousands in life insurance to meet tax bills when they go.

Btw, how does life insurance work? 

[dazzleman]

Good lord man, the exemptions are huge - something like several millions at this point I believe.  I know they were one million per parent before Bush's tax cuts began to be implemented.  In any case the old creatures do have hundreds of thousands in life insurance to meet tax bills when they go.

Btw, how does life insurance work? 

It depends on whom the beneficary is.

[opebo]

Btw, how does life insurance work? 

It depends on whom the beneficary is.

No I meant does it pay out when you die, regardless of how old you are?  In other words, do you inevitably get the payout?

[memphis]

People who go around putting others down are just covering for their own inadequacies.

And to answer the original question, yes, you can be a liberal and live in a McMansion.  It happens all the time.

very true.

i still find it funny that an 'owner' cant gather up enough resources to move his ass out of 'the bad place'.

there is a lot about opebo that doesnt add up.

That's because he's not an owner.  He's no different than a welfare recipient, except that his source of welfare is private rather than public.

He can't wait for his parents to die, so he can inherit their supposedly vast fortune, since now they have him on a very limited income, so limited that he can't even live all year in a 3rd world country without coming home to mooch for several months a year.

My guess is that they don't have half the money he says they do.  And when they die, they'll probably have it tied up, so he's not any better off than he is now.  Or if they're smart, they'll leave it to the Cat Foundation.

SamSpade is a much better example of a person from a wealthy family who has done something constructive with it, and doesn't put down other people who weren't born into that situation.

So, Dazzleman and WalterMitty, you guys ready to support inheritance taxes now and make Opebo work for a living?

It is then the upper middle class -- who cannot run the risk of giving up control effectively of large chunks of their money while they are still alive, or who have their wealth tied up in a business -- that end up paying inheritance taxes.

Only a Republican could think that somebody who dies with a couple million dollars of assets is "upper middle class."

[TomC]

Btw, how does life insurance work? 

It depends on whom the beneficary is.

No I meant does it pay out when you die, regardless of how old you are?  In other words, do you inevitably get the payout?

There are different kinds. Term life insurance is only for a specific time frame, like while you have dependent children. There's also what I guess is called permanent life insurance- that your estate gets whenever you die.

[opebo]

Only a Republican could think that somebody who dies with a couple million dollars of assets is "upper middle class."

Heh, true.  But he is making a useful distinction between the very small time rich people like my family, Sam Spade's family and probably dazzleman himself, and the truly rich, who of course one never meets.

[memphis]

Only a Republican could think that somebody who dies with a couple million dollars of assets is "upper middle class."

Heh, true.  But he is making a useful distinction between the very small time rich people like my family, Sam Spade's family and probably dazzleman himself, and the truly rich, who of course one never meets.

It's obviously a spectrum and not two discrete groups.  Nonetheless, if you have to even consider the estate tax, you are in the top couple of percents of American households and I, therefore, have no qualms about giving you the label "rich."

[dazzleman]

Only a Republican could think that somebody who dies with a couple million dollars of assets is "upper middle class."

It depends what part of the country you're in.  Around here, estates of $1 million + are not unusual if the person worked his/her whole life and owned a home.  Around here, houses alone are often worth around $1 million, and older people have had tremendous appreciation on their homes.

My definition of rich is that your money works for you, and not the other way around.  By that definition, having assets of a couple of million dollars in this section of the country does not make a person rich, but possibly the upper end of upper middle class.

I am trying to make a distinction between the very rich, and those who are simply successful and comfortable, but still had to work their whole lives.

[Sam Spade]

People who go around putting others down are just covering for their own inadequacies.

And to answer the original question, yes, you can be a liberal and live in a McMansion.  It happens all the time.

very true.

i still find it funny that an 'owner' cant gather up enough resources to move his ass out of 'the bad place'.

there is a lot about opebo that doesnt add up.

That's because he's not an owner.  He's no different than a welfare recipient, except that his source of welfare is private rather than public.

He can't wait for his parents to die, so he can inherit their supposedly vast fortune, since now they have him on a very limited income, so limited that he can't even live all year in a 3rd world country without coming home to mooch for several months a year.

My guess is that they don't have half the money he says they do.  And when they die, they'll probably have it tied up, so he's not any better off than he is now.  Or if they're smart, they'll leave it to the Cat Foundation.

SamSpade is a much better example of a person from a wealthy family who has done something constructive with it, and doesn't put down other people who weren't born into that situation.

So, Dazzleman and WalterMitty, you guys ready to support inheritance taxes now and make Opebo work for a living?

It is then the upper middle class -- who cannot run the risk of giving up control effectively of large chunks of their money while they are still alive, or who have their wealth tied up in a business -- that end up paying inheritance taxes.

Only a Republican could think that somebody who dies with a couple million dollars of assets is "upper middle class."

For 2006, the tax limit on estates is $2 million and above that estates are taxed at a 46% marginal rate.  My family's estate falls way above this line, yet they live what I would call an upper middle class existence.

But the fact is that nowadays, especially if you live along the coasts in the United States, your house or apartment alone will come close to breaking that limit of $2 million, and estates consist of any tangible assets, no matter whether they produce income or not. 

The "upper middle class" and other classes are defined mainly by your location rather than by your income or assets.  For example, $100,000 a year is upper middle class in Tennessee.  In NYC, you're lucky to be considered middle class at that point.  In fact, in NYC I wouldn't really even start to consider someone upper middle class until they make over $250,000 a year, at least.

But anyway, it's quite true that the only people who get hit by the estate tax are those who were unaware they were going to hit by it to begin with.  That's the reason why the tax always underfills revenue predictions.

If you really want to be redistributionist and not destroy the self-made man, eliminate all loopholes and put an estate tax in at a higher amount, say $10-20 million, or if you want be generous, $50 million and index it to inflation. 

Of course, then that will probably drive most of the super-rich to move their money out of the country, but maybe some of them won't be smart enough to do that and maybe the economy won't get it too badly.

[King]

I think the cheapy-built part is the largest criticism of them.

Isn't that also the biggest criticism of liberalism, too?

[memphis]

People who go around putting others down are just covering for their own inadequacies.

And to answer the original question, yes, you can be a liberal and live in a McMansion.  It happens all the time.

very true.

i still find it funny that an 'owner' cant gather up enough resources to move his ass out of 'the bad place'.

there is a lot about opebo that doesnt add up.

That's because he's not an owner.  He's no different than a welfare recipient, except that his source of welfare is private rather than public.

He can't wait for his parents to die, so he can inherit their supposedly vast fortune, since now they have him on a very limited income, so limited that he can't even live all year in a 3rd world country without coming home to mooch for several months a year.

My guess is that they don't have half the money he says they do.  And when they die, they'll probably have it tied up, so he's not any better off than he is now.  Or if they're smart, they'll leave it to the Cat Foundation.

SamSpade is a much better example of a person from a wealthy family who has done something constructive with it, and doesn't put down other people who weren't born into that situation.

So, Dazzleman and WalterMitty, you guys ready to support inheritance taxes now and make Opebo work for a living?

It is then the upper middle class -- who cannot run the risk of giving up control effectively of large chunks of their money while they are still alive, or who have their wealth tied up in a business -- that end up paying inheritance taxes.

Only a Republican could think that somebody who dies with a couple million dollars of assets is "upper middle class."

For 2006, the tax limit on estates is $2 million and above that estates are taxed at a 46% marginal rate.  My family's estate falls way above this line, yet they live what I would call an upper middle class existence.

But the fact is that nowadays, especially if you live along the coasts in the United States, your house or apartment alone will come close to breaking that limit of $2 million, and estates consist of any tangible assets, no matter whether they produce income or not. 

The "upper middle class" and other classes are defined mainly by your location rather than by your income or assets.  For example, $100,000 a year is upper middle class in Tennessee.  In NYC, you're lucky to be considered middle class at that point.  In fact, in NYC I wouldn't really even start to consider someone upper middle class until they make over $250,000 a year, at least.

But anyway, it's quite true that the only people who get hit by the estate tax are those who were unaware they were going to hit by it to begin with.  That's the reason why the tax always underfills revenue predictions.

If you really want to be redistributionist and not destroy the self-made man, eliminate all loopholes and put an estate tax in at a higher amount, say $10-20 million, or if you want be generous, $50 million and index it to inflation. 

Of course, then that will probably drive most of the super-rich to move their money out of the country, but maybe some of them won't be smart enough to do that and maybe the economy won't get it too badly.

First off, $100,000/year in Tennessee is unquestionably upper class. Median income here is about $40,000/year. Yes, there will still be those wealthier than you and yes, there will still be things you want, but can't afford.  However, there's still nothing middle about it!

Second, there are a few isolated places (San Francisco, Manhattan) where one million dollars (an extravagant amount of money) will buy you only humble housing. Nonetheless, you are still extremely wealthy if you can buy that condo on the Upper Wide Side. If you weren't you'd have no choice but to move to New Jersey or the East Bay.  Just because you are surrounded by people who have just as much money as you do does not mean you are not rich.  Even in Manhattan, census has median income at $47,000/year.

Sam Spade, you say that your family lives a "middle class existance" I have not seen your home, where you shop, or where you vacation. Maybe you guys do save the overwhelming majority of your money and live simply. If you do, I applaud you for it, but you are still very "rich" if you exceed the $2 million exemption.

By the way, if your house is bigger than 2000 square feet, you're probably not middle class either.  Just admit you're doing better than the overwhelming majority of Americans. Why is that so hard to admit? You should be happy about it rather than living your life in denial.

[dazzleman]

First off, $100,000/year in Tennessee is unquestionably upper class. Median income here is about $40,000/year. Yes, there will still be those wealthier than you and yes, there will still be things you want, but can't afford.  However, there's still nothing middle about it!

Second, there are a few isolated places (San Francisco, Manhattan) where one million dollars (an extravagant amount of money) will buy you only humble housing. Nonetheless, you are still extremely wealthy if you can buy that condo on the Upper Wide Side. If you weren't you'd have no choice but to move to New Jersey or the East Bay.  Just because you are surrounded by people who have just as much money as you do does not mean you are not rich.  Even in Manhattan, census has median income at $47,000/year.

Sam Spade, you say that your family lives a "middle class existance" I have not seen your home, where you shop, or where you vacation. Maybe you guys do save the overwhelming majority of your money and live simply. If you do, I applaud you for it, but you are still very "rich" if you exceed the $2 million exemption.

By the way, if your house is bigger than 2000 square feet, you're probably not middle class either.  Just admit you're doing better than the overwhelming majority of Americans. Why is that so hard to admit? You should be happy about it rather than living your life in denial.

memphis, I don't think you really understand what the economic situation is around some of our major coastal cities.

You can't escape the high housing prices in Manhattan by moving to New Jersey.  Prices there are almost as bad.  You have to go two hours outside the city before prices start to moderate.

$100,000 per year may be upper class in Tennessee, but it sure isn't anywhere near here.  I have a 2,400 square foot house in an upper middle class neighborhood, and I could never own it on an income of $100,000 per year, unless I had saved up enough money previously to buy it outright, and had no mortgage.  Even with that, the property taxes are about $9,000 per year, which would be a big chunk of the income.

[Sam Spade]

First off, $100,000/year in Tennessee is unquestionably upper class. Median income here is about $40,000/year. Yes, there will still be those wealthier than you and yes, there will still be things you want, but can't afford.  However, there's still nothing middle about it!

I don't know where you've gotten the idea this is all about me.  I really could care less, other than to point out to opebo how trusts and estates actually work.

If you say $100,000/year is upper class in Tennessee, that's fine.

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The average apartment/house sale in Manhattan is now just under $1,000,000.  If you want to move out to Nassau/Suffolk/Westchester County, you can usually get a house for less ($500,000), but you pay the highest property taxes in the nation.  Connecticut is equally as annoying.  The good Jersey neighborhoods that are anywhere close to New York have just as ridiculous prices.  Median income is a misleading statistic in this case.  You can barely live on $47,000 a year in NYC.

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Let's see:  My family lives in Houston, Texas, in a house that is probably valued at $200-$250,000 (average house price in Houston is $160,000).  It is an older house, built in the 1930s, with 2,130 sqft.  Does have a garage apartment.  BRTD would probably like the house, then trash the neighbors around it.

They live on the Southeast side of town inside the Loop.  In case you don't know Houston, this is Barrio Central.

But it is probably the best or second-best part of the area.  It is in an area that most of the neighbors refer to as the "Mexican River Oaks", having to do with the 70%Hisp-30%White breakdown of the neighborhood and the upwardly mobile nature of most of its residents (2nd and 3rd generation immigrants).  Most of these people are either your standard Hispanic Democrats or Hispanic Republicans (esp. if their family was military).  Most of the whites are Democrats.

My family, being self-employed, typically takes about 2-3 weeks off per year.  They do have a house and 30 acres in the Hill Country that has skyrocketed in value over the past few years as yuppie Austinites invade the area, but rarely get a chance to spend time there.

They typically shop at the neighborhood establishments:  the HEB, the Target, the Office Depot, the Home Depot.  My mom has a thing for shopping a thrift stores.  I really don't know why.

Anyway, you have my family correct on saving money and living a simple existence.  It is simply the way they are and frankly it's the way I am also.  Everyone would be better off if did things that way, imo.

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Of course, I'm doing better than the majority of Americans.  That's the reason why I called myself "upper middle class".  But I'm not really making much more money than most; just because the amount of money I get from XYZ is more than opebo and I actually am trusted about its details and I also work a job as well does not mean I'm living in denial.

I guess one day that I'll be able to refer to myself as upper class, when I get my inflation-adjusted millions.  Until then, I'm not really upper class, unless future inheritance counts as present earnings.  I guess it does provide me a little security, but in life there is rarely any security in anything.  Look at what happened to Joe Republic.

[opebo]

My mom has a thing for shopping a thrift stores.  I really don't know why.

So does mine!  But she got it from me.  I love thrift shops.  New things are such garbage compared to old things, and one can actually find something closer to unique.
 

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What happened to Joe Republic?

Anyway, of course future inheritance does count, because that is the primary way that upper-class status is transferred. 

[Alcon]

What happened to Joe Republic?

He was in a car accident.  There was a 50-50 chance he'd be paralysed for life, but apparently he's recovering slowly.

[dazzleman]

Btw, how does life insurance work? 

It depends on whom the beneficary is.

No I meant does it pay out when you die, regardless of how old you are?  In other words, do you inevitably get the payout?

Yes, the beneficiary inevitably gets the payout as long as the policy has been maintained.

There are two types of life insurance -- term and whole.

Term life has lower premiums in the short run, but you'd have to keep paying them for life in order to collect.  Once you stop paying, the benefit lapses.

Whole life has higher payments for a finite period of time, and then remains in effect with no further payment required until the insured person dies, at which time the beneficiaries are paid.

With whole life, it is also sometimes possible for the insured to tap into while he/she is still alive.

[TomC]

Can you be a conservative if you live in a run down shack? Of course.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Can you be a conservative if you live in a run down shack? Of course.

Well most liberals don't live in such places. In fact most people who do are more likely to be conservative. Liberals live in urban apartments like the one I live in.