Homophobia Spreads Across the EU
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 18, 2024, 09:13:29 PM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  International General Discussion (Moderators: afleitch, Hash)
  Homophobia Spreads Across the EU
« previous next »
Pages: [1]
Author Topic: Homophobia Spreads Across the EU  (Read 1620 times)
Frodo
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,503
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: March 13, 2006, 11:04:20 PM »
« edited: March 13, 2006, 11:05:55 PM by Frodo »

Homophobia seeps across new EU

Daniel McLaughlin in Warsaw
Sunday March 12, 2006
The Observer


He has been attacked by skinheads and threatened by police, and Szymon Niemiec sees life in Poland getting even tougher. 'For gays and lesbians, today's Poland is like 1930s Germany,' he says. 'We are ruled by a fascist party, which uses the same language and ideas as Hitler.'

As a prominent gay rights campaigner, Niemiec, 25, has long been a target for extremist groups, but since the election of the Law and Justice party last November he has felt a new wave of prejudice coursing through deeply Catholic, conservative Poland.

'The police even visited my home,' he says. 'And they told me they were ready to do what they did in 1985, when hundreds of gays and lesbians were rounded up and interrogated by the Communist police.' Law and Justice (PiS) came to power promising to purge the EU's largest new member of corruption, cronyism and disparities of wealth that have sent the Warsaw skyline soaring, while the elderly struggle and unemployment nears 20 per cent.

But many see a dark side to the party's 'moral revolution' and the rhetoric of other social conservatives challenging for power across central Europe.

Human Rights Watch has accused President Lech Kaczynski of presiding over 'official homophobia' in Poland - as mayor of Warsaw he banned gay parades and said he was 'not willing to meet perverts' when asked to talk to its organisers.

His twin brother, Jaroslaw, the leader of PiS, has said gay people should not teach in schools, while Prime Minister Kazimierz Marcinkiewicz has called homosexuality an 'unnatural' thing that the state must prevent from 'infecting' the general public.

'These are Catholic fundamentalists,' says Tomasz Szypula, of Poland's Campaign Against Homophobia. 'One of the first things they did after taking power was abolish the government office for gender equality, which dealt with all forms of prejudice here.'

It also helped fund minority rights groups and was the kind of anti-discrimination body that the EU demands in all member states. Critics say its abolition exemplified the government's scorn for Brussels.

'Some of the new EU members signed up to decrees to get into the EU but now treat them like an à la carte menu on which they can ignore what they don't like,' says Michael Cashman, Labour MEP for the West Midlands.

Events in Poland and moves to ban gay marriage in Latvia and Lithuania prompted the European Parliament to pass a resolution against homophobia in January.

Only six of 54 Polish MEPs backed the motion, and the EU will struggle to match the Catholic Church's influence on Poland's new government.

link
Logged
Jake
dubya2004
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,621
Cuba


Political Matrix
E: -0.90, S: -0.35

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2006, 11:10:20 PM »

Poland=Freedom Fighters
Logged
Alcon
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 30,867
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2006, 11:33:52 PM »

Poland has been dead to me ever since I first tried to pronounce a Polish name.
Logged
afleitch
Moderator
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,821


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2006, 03:53:39 AM »

It is a problem in Eastern Europe. Poland in particular where raw Catholicism (and a very popular talk radio station that pump out homophobic and even anti-semetic material) seems to hold sway. Gay pride marches have been banned in major cities and there is open and regular harrasment. Many young people are fleeing the country, both gay and straight because they simply cannot go along with this. Luckily Poland may fall foul of EU law at one point.
Logged
angus
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,423
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2006, 03:24:34 PM »

'For gays and lesbians, today's Poland is like 1930s Germany,'

Except that the armbands people are forced to wear are lavender with little rainbows, instead of yellow with little stars of david.  Otherwise, I'm sure it's exactly the same.
Logged
afleitch
Moderator
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,821


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2006, 03:28:44 PM »

'For gays and lesbians, today's Poland is like 1930s Germany,'

Except that the armbands are lavender with little rainbows, instead of yellow with little stars.

The Nazi's used a pink triangle to identify homosexuals, whether proven or not, to be sent to camps or the gas chambers. If you had a pink triangle superimposed on a star of David you were deemed to be the lowest of the low, a gay Jew.

Just thought I'd throw in the factlet.  Though it's a bit like 'The More You Know' Smiley
Logged
Gabu
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 28,388
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -4.32, S: -6.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2006, 03:29:25 PM »

Glad to see we haven't forgotten Poland.
Logged
angus
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,423
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2006, 03:52:26 PM »

'For gays and lesbians, today's Poland is like 1930s Germany,'

Except that the armbands are lavender with little rainbows, instead of yellow with little stars.

The Nazi's used a pink triangle to identify homosexuals,

Except apparently for those gay Nazis.  And there were many.  Frank Rector points out in "The Nazi Extermination of Homosexuals" that prior to about mid-1934 the SA leadership was dominated by homosexuals.  He even attempts to make the case that the contribution made by organized gays was a necessary condition for Hitler's success in 1933.

But I was going more for sarcasm with my initial post than an intelligent discussion of gays in Nazi Germany.  And the bit I quoted definitely merited sarcasm, at least.
Logged
afleitch
Moderator
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,821


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2006, 03:53:07 PM »

But I was going more for sardonism with my initial post than an intelligent discussion of gays in Nazi Germany.  And the bit I quoted definitely merited sarcasm, at least.

I know it was sarchasm Angus Smiley I was just throwing in a random fact and did not mean to imply anything other than that.
Logged
??????????
StatesRights
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 31,126
Political Matrix
E: 7.61, S: 0.00

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2006, 07:12:14 PM »

Logged
afleitch
Moderator
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,821


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2006, 07:14:56 PM »


Whose freedoms are being fought for might I ask? Should we celebrate the 'freedom fighters' who beat and threaten the young man in the article?
Logged
Jake
dubya2004
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,621
Cuba


Political Matrix
E: -0.90, S: -0.35

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2006, 07:17:26 PM »

I do every day.
Logged
afleitch
Moderator
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,821


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2006, 07:22:45 PM »
« Edited: March 14, 2006, 07:43:59 PM by Governor Afleitch »


I feel sorry for you Jake. How dare you condone unprovoked violence against another like that.

I was beaten up when people knew I was gay. Would you have celebrated that?

EDIT: I apologise for my tone, but I am offended and slightly hurt by what you have implied.
Logged
angus
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,423
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2006, 08:07:30 PM »

I was beaten up when people knew I was gay.

ouch.  I'm sorry to hear that.  I hadn't realized the article brought up unpleasant unpersonal memories.  People can be assholes, sometimes.  But I still think the immediate comparison of anyone we don't like to Nazis isn't instinctual, but learned, and any brain that can be washed can be made unwashed again, with patience.  I cannot believe that living in fear of getting a thorough beating from some unpleasant thugs can compare to the fear felt by Jews, cripples, gypsies, and political dissidents in Nazi Germany.
Logged
afleitch
Moderator
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,821


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2006, 08:12:39 PM »
« Edited: March 14, 2006, 08:15:55 PM by Governor Afleitch »

I cannot believe that living in fear of getting a thorough beating from some unpleasant thugs can compare to the fear felt by Jews, cripples, gypsies, and political dissidents in Nazi Germany.

And neither does it measure up to the persecution of homosexuals, or even heterosexuals wrongly accused by the same regime that treated the cripples, gypsies, and political dissidents you mentioned above with persecution.

But I agree in that comparing everything to the 'Nazis' is self defeatest and usually grossly innacurate in weight. I don't know his personal situation and I don't condone what the student said in the article. But I can understand his fear in a country that is experience such radical social upheaval.
Logged
angus
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,423
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2006, 08:24:44 PM »

Not sure what is going on here.  Up until a few years ago it seemed as though gay people were in the US and Europe and other countries were gaining more acceptance.  (In fact polling data shows that they are.  In the US, people claiming to be "comfortable with the gay lifestyle" has steadily increased from about 34% in 1981 to about 52% in 2005.)  But there is a very recent trend against gays.  Maybe it's just that politicians have tapped into something deep in the psyche that they can exploit, rather than a widespread spontaneous homophobia.  You'd probably be more sensitive to all that than I, of course, but I'd not assume that Poles are going mediaeval just yet.   Also, it may be an overreaction to recent popularity (or perceived overpopularity) of "gay culture" in my country and yours, as evidenced by a barrage of television programs aimed at either gay or gay-friendly audiences.  Some folks do apparently feel edgy about the whole idea that meaningful homosexual familarity should be on an equal footing with heterosexual relationships.  (Recall the usually measured Antonin Scalia's famous tantrum a few years back.)  Bear in mind that Poles were under the thumb of Reagan's "evil empire" till recently, and this may very be a manifestation of Liberty and Free Expression, albeit an offensive one.  They may feel a catharsis, in terms of recently gained free religion and the like, and some have gotten a little too carried away. 
Logged
afleitch
Moderator
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,821


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2006, 08:35:50 PM »

Homophobic attitudes do vary from country to country and age group to age group. I have found that younger people in Britain and closer at home in Scotland tend to be accepting; it's almost a non issue. But there are pockets of 'youthful intolerance.' And I'll say it again, certain ethnic minority communities hold deep rooted homophobic views in the way others do not (the Afro-Carribean has a problem which Afro-Carribean gay men are the first to admit as do sections of the Muslim connunity and so on) but these are not tackled for fear of causing offence or being accused of racism.

Liberals find this difficult to deal with; when a 'minority' (usually anyone who is  non white, non straight, non male and non Christian) doesn't like another. Because it has been repeated, almost as a mantra, that all minorities suffer at the hands of the same majority, so they all must share common goals. Which is nonsense. There are minorities which, according to classic liberals like Brian Barry for example, are in themselves 'illiberal' and to accomodate them is detrimental to liberalism. There is also a trending backlash against 'group rights' which in some circle means gay rights too.

So while I'm shouting against political correctness, I could also be a 'victim' of any backlash against it. If a nation embraces differentiated sexuality as part of its culture; it's liberal values and so forth (like Holland for example) then gay people do not suffer. They are seen by expressing their sexuailty as being an 'embodiment' of liberalism and freedom. But in nations where such an 'embrace' has not taken place and sexuality is not seen as personal freedom or a classicaly liberal freedom, then they can tend to suffer.
Logged
Cubby
Pim Fortuyn
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,067
Israel


Political Matrix
E: -3.74, S: -6.96

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2006, 04:08:08 AM »


I feel sorry for you Jake. How dare you condone unprovoked violence against another like that.

I was beaten up when people knew I was gay. Would you have celebrated that?

EDIT: I apologise for my tone, but I am offended and slightly hurt by what you have implied.

Don't apologize for anything, especially to Jake. Your tone is appropriate. Its gotten to the point where he and States Rights joke about gays being dragged behind trucks and I don't even react. A year ago I would have reported them in a second. I like to believe that they don't really mean it, I mean, they don't approve of the "lifestyle" but they don't actually want us to be hurt or killed, I hope.

Several countries, Germany, France and others, never wanted Poland in the EU to begin with. If any good can come out of the situation it would be that the founding EU members use these incidents to kick out Poland due to human rights abuses. The real reason would be worries over Polish workers flooding their economies, but anything to stop official violence would be good.
Logged
afleitch
Moderator
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,821


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2006, 08:51:36 AM »


I feel sorry for you Jake. How dare you condone unprovoked violence against another like that.

I was beaten up when people knew I was gay. Would you have celebrated that?

EDIT: I apologise for my tone, but I am offended and slightly hurt by what you have implied.

I am still waiting for a response to that Smiley
Logged
minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,207
India


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2006, 09:59:22 AM »

Of course, the thing is that there weren't any gay protest marches in Poland ten years ago either. This is probably better understood in the terms of a gay movement becoming more assertive and outspoken. The original Christopher Street Day was a riot provoked by a not-uncommon police raid, remember? It was hardly a sign of rising prosecution that Village gays decided to fight back that day, it was a sign of things changing for the better. And much of what I see out of Poland now looks fairly similar to me.
Logged
minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,207
India


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2006, 10:01:23 AM »

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.
There is a similar misapprehension that gays must be liberal, and therefore non-racist... Wink
Logged
Pages: [1]  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.053 seconds with 11 queries.