Israel and NATO

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Second, there are diffent kinds of Palestinian refugees. Those that where driven from their homes in the 1948-49 war, those driven away in the 1967 war

Which brings up an important point (and one that hardly gets raised by anyone)... no one should be leaving in in a refugee camp (or shanty town) of some kind half a century after their family became refugees. Personally I think that that, not the usual hackneyed debate about who's land it "really" is, is the real disgrace of what's happend in the Middle East over the past century or so; Arab government's have a hell of a lot to answer for IMO.

[opebo]

...Arab government's have a hell of a lot to answer for IMO.

Why?  The Jewish theocracy caused the problem.  It seems a bit ridiculous to blame others for not cleaning up after them.

[Jens]

Second, there are diffent kinds of Palestinian refugees. Those that where driven from their homes in the 1948-49 war, those driven away in the 1967 war

Which brings up an important point (and one that hardly gets raised by anyone)... no one should be leaving in in a refugee camp (or shanty town) of some kind half a century after their family became refugees. Personally I think that that, not the usual hackneyed debate about who's land it "really" is, is the real disgrace of what's happend in the Middle East over the past century or so; Arab government's have a hell of a lot to answer for IMO.

That is true, but I also understand the motives of the neighbouring governments. In Lebanon it would have tipped the delicate balance between Christians and Muslims (not that that happened anyway) and in Jordan it would have brought a whole new power into society (don't forget the Paletinians did try to coup the king).
If you again look at Germany the refugees and forcefully moved people seriously altered the cultural, political and social picture in many länder, fx Schleswig-Holstein where the population was nearly dobbled and the Danish and Frisian minorities were facing complete marginalisation. That didn't happen because of and agreement between the Danish and German governments, but it put serious pressure on no-german parts of the society in S-H

[Filuwaúrdjan]

In Lebanon it would have tipped the delicate balance between Christians and Muslims (not that that happened anyway)

Although it happend anyway o/c. And probably wouldn't have been so bad if they'd tried to integrate the refugees into society; besides it would have provided a lot of employment in construction and might have helped to stabilise the economy.

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Which is the reason why they didn't do it, but it's still a terrible thing to do (or not to do). And again, if integration had happend there would be less tension between the refugees (aren't they in a majority now?) and the Government.

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Well yes, refugees do change things. A lot in some cases. Same with immigration in general. But it's still no excuse to not integrate refugees.

[Jens]

In Lebanon it would have tipped the delicate balance between Christians and Muslims (not that that didn't happened anyway)

Although it happend anyway o/c. And probably wouldn't have been so bad if they'd tried to integrate the refugees into society; besides it would have provided a lot of employment in construction and might have helped to stabilise the economy.

I forgot a "didn't" in that sentence

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Which is the reason why they didn't do it, but it's still a terrible thing to do (or not to do). And again, if integration had happend there would be less tension between the refugees (aren't they in a majority now?) and the Government.

True, but it is easy to understand the Jordanian government, and today it is to some extent too late. The Palestinian identity is firmly establised and it is going to take generations to integrate them into jordanian society

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Well yes, refugees do change things. A lot in some cases. Same with immigration in general. But it's still no excuse to not integrate refugees.

True, but is isn't easy which was my point, not to you, more to Pym et.al. who apparently think that you just move 600.000 living breathing individuals

[patrick1]

What is the point exactly?  Israel and their lobby already have plenty of influence in the American government.  Perhaps this move would save them a little procedural troubles in not having to hire guys like Pollard.  I'm being a bit sarcastic here, but who really thinks that the US would not immediately come to aid Israel? 

[TeePee4Prez]

No.  To controversial of a nation to allow into NATO.  I think both the Israelis and Palestinians have serious issues.  I realize there are plenty of American Jews who aren't all gung-ho Israel and maybe some Israelis should follow their lead.  I think there should be Palestinian autonomy and part of this mess we have in the Middle East would be avoided.  I believe in an Israeli state, but we have to tone down our imperialism in that region. 

[Kevin]

No, because the problems in the Middle East would be made even worse by this.