Israel and NATO

[Frodo]

Read this op-ed first:

Contain Iran: Admit Israel to NATO

By Ronald D. Asmus
Tuesday, February 21, 2006; Page A15

The choice of how to respond to Iran's growing threat to the West in general and Israel in particular is not an easy one. One option is to try to stop Iran's nuclear program via an air and missile strike -- but such a step is unlikely to work militarily and could have disastrous consequences. The other is to shift to a longer-term strategy of containment while working for peaceful regime change. While that might work over time, it is unlikely to stop Iran from going nuclear in the short term if it is determined to do so. While working to prevent Iran from going nuclear, the West must think now about what to do if we fail.

One important element has been missing from the debate: NATO. What can the alliance do to help address the growing likelihood that Iran will acquire nuclear weapons? Let us not forget that it is European capitals that would be within striking distance of Iranian nuclear arms. NATO would have to return to its classic mission of defending Europe by deterring a nuclear threat. This development would also accelerate the debate in NATO over a regional missile defense system. The alliance would have to reorient its defense shield to confront the greatest threats to its members, emanating from the wider Middle East, in particular from a nuclear-armed Iran.
   
But the country most threatened by a future Iranian nuclear capability is, of course, Israel. It would be a mistake to dismiss Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's rantings about Israel as mere posturing or a bluff. One lesson from Sept. 11 is that we should not limit our strategic imagination or underestimate our enemies in the Middle East. When someone says he wants to wipe you off the map, he might just might mean it. If, then, the West decides that a military strike to deny Iran the nuclear option is too risky and instead opts for a policy of deterrence and long-term peaceful regime change, it must also take steps to ensure Israel's protection for that interim period.

The United States already has a de facto security commitment to Israel. Any future U.S. president would go to the defense of that country if its existence were threatened by a nuclear-armed Iran. And in spite of the anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic voices that one can hear in Europe, there is little doubt that European leaders such as Tony Blair, Angela Merkel and even Jacques Chirac would also stand tall and defend Israel against an Iranian threat. Given this situation, basic deterrence theory tells us that it is more credible and effective if those commitments are clear and unambiguous.

The best way to provide Israel with that additional security is to upgrade its relationship with the collective defense arm of the West: NATO. Whether that upgraded relationship culminates in membership for Israel or simply a much closer strategic and operational defense relationship can be debated. After all, a classic security guarantee requires clear and recognized borders to be defended, something Israel does not have today. Configuring an upgraded Israel-NATO relationship will require careful diplomacy and planning. But what must be clear is that the West is prepared to match the growing bellicosity against Israel by stepping up its commitment to the existence of the Jewish state.

source

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

What a wonderful idea. NOT!
I don't trust either Israel or Iran with nuclear weapons in the long term, and putting us in the middle of their dispute is idiotic.  Better to step aside and let Mid East peace break out after they toss their nukes at each other.

[Erc]

As much as I like Israel...if you admit it to NATO, NATO dies.

[opebo]

Why admit that pariah?

[Cubby]

Option 1

The security of Israel should always be a top concern to the U.S.

If NATO is to continue to exist it needs new goals and ideas, so protecting Israel and Europe are good starts.

[MasterJedi]

Option 3, I wouldn't mind letting them in.

[afleitch]

Option 1. Yes.

[Democratic Hawk]

Democrat -  Yes (absolutely)

Dave

[Jens]

Absolutely NO. An Israely membership of NATO would make it impossible for EU and USA to participate in negociations as neutral parties. Israel has plenty of nucleur weponry to wipe out Iran in case of an Iranian attact and aggressive Israely actions in the occupied territories would put NATO in a quite unfortunate situation.

And a side note: Why should Israel recieve special treatment? 

[Cubby]

Absolutely NO. An Israely membership of NATO would make it impossible for EU and USA to participate in negociations as neutral parties. Israel has plenty of nucleur weponry to wipe out Iran in case of an Iranian attact and aggressive Israely actions in the occupied territories would put NATO in a quite unfortunate situation.

And a side note: Why should Israel recieve special treatment? 

Because it and Turkey are the only Democracies in the Middle East.

Because it has a right to exist, which Iran is directly threatening

Because Europe has a historical obligation to protect Israel from harm

[Jens]

Absolutely NO. An Israely membership of NATO would make it impossible for EU and USA to participate in negociations as neutral parties. Israel has plenty of nucleur weponry to wipe out Iran in case of an Iranian attact and aggressive Israely actions in the occupied territories would put NATO in a quite unfortunate situation.

And a side note: Why should Israel recieve special treatment? 

Because it and Turkey are the only Democracies in the Middle East.

Because it has a right to exist, which Iran is directly threatening

Because Europe has a historical obligation to protect Israel from harm

Why not include other democracies like South Africa, India, Georgia or Costa Rica, who also has been mistreated by Europe and USA and has a right to exist

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Israel is not a classical liberal democracy in which everyone subject to its government's powers is able to vote, and it hasn't been one since 1967.  Until Israel is able to resolve that problem, NATO membership is not an option.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Who cares if they're democratic or not? I don't. Isreal is under special circumstances where it CAN'T be a democracy and survive.

[Beet]

Who cares if they're democratic or not? I don't. Isreal is under special circumstances where it CAN'T be a democracy and survive.

They should have thought about that before setting up their country on someone else's land.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

The only reason isreal has problems is that they didn't do the merciful thing and immediantly boot out the palestinians in one fell swoop instead of let them remain on the land and slowly disposess them. The heartbreak woudl have been less over the long runsince there wouldn't be any palestinians in Isreal's borders so less long term hatred.

[Beet]

The only reason isreal has problems is that they didn't do the merciful thing and immediantly boot out the palestinians in one fell swoop instead of let them remain on the land and slowly disposess them. The heartbreak woudl have been less over the long runsince there wouldn't be any palestinians in Isreal's borders so less long term hatred.

Go ahead, boot them out of their homes. I would actually like to see that. Seriously. Let's see the world reaction when 1.5 million refugees are robbed of their land so the Israelis can get their lebenstraum. What a field day that would be!!

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

The only reason isreal has problems is that they didn't do the merciful thing and immediantly boot out the palestinians in one fell swoop instead of let them remain on the land and slowly disposess them. The heartbreak woudl have been less over the long runsince there wouldn't be any palestinians in Isreal's borders so less long term hatred.

Go ahead, boot them out of their homes. I would actually like to see that. Seriously. Let's see the world reaction when 1.5 million refugees are robbed of their land so the Israelis can get their lebenstraum. What a field day that would be!!

Doing it now would be politically impossible but doing it in 1948 or 1967 woudl have worked out.

[Beet]

The only reason isreal has problems is that they didn't do the merciful thing and immediantly boot out the palestinians in one fell swoop instead of let them remain on the land and slowly disposess them. The heartbreak woudl have been less over the long runsince there wouldn't be any palestinians in Isreal's borders so less long term hatred.

Go ahead, boot them out of their homes. I would actually like to see that. Seriously. Let's see the world reaction when 1.5 million refugees are robbed of their land so the Israelis can get their lebenstraum. What a field day that would be!!

Doing it now would be politically impossible but doing it in 1948 or 1967 woudl have worked out.

I think the Israelis just dont have the guts to do what they want to do deep inside. But at least you can admit the truth.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

The only reason isreal has problems is that they didn't do the merciful thing and immediantly boot out the palestinians in one fell swoop instead of let them remain on the land and slowly disposess them. The heartbreak woudl have been less over the long runsince there wouldn't be any palestinians in Isreal's borders so less long term hatred.

Go ahead, boot them out of their homes. I would actually like to see that. Seriously. Let's see the world reaction when 1.5 million refugees are robbed of their land so the Israelis can get their lebenstraum. What a field day that would be!!

Doing it now would be politically impossible but doing it in 1948 or 1967 woudl have worked out.

I think the Israelis just dont have the guts to do what they want to do deep inside. But at least you can admit the truth.

It would cause alot of international outrage now but witohut the palestinians on occupied land to rally the world left we'd see people forgetting aobut it over time.

[Beet]

The only reason isreal has problems is that they didn't do the merciful thing and immediantly boot out the palestinians in one fell swoop instead of let them remain on the land and slowly disposess them. The heartbreak woudl have been less over the long runsince there wouldn't be any palestinians in Isreal's borders so less long term hatred.

Go ahead, boot them out of their homes. I would actually like to see that. Seriously. Let's see the world reaction when 1.5 million refugees are robbed of their land so the Israelis can get their lebenstraum. What a field day that would be!!

Doing it now would be politically impossible but doing it in 1948 or 1967 woudl have worked out.

I think the Israelis just dont have the guts to do what they want to do deep inside. But at least you can admit the truth.

It would cause alot of international outrage now but witohut the palestinians on occupied land to rally the world left we'd see people forgetting aobut it over time.

As I said... I'd like to see the Israelis (try to) do it if it's so good for them. But if they're not afraid of anything let the free media cameras show what's going on in precise detail

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

If Israel had oil to sell like Sudan does, I'm sure they'd be able to get away with expelling the rightful inhabitants, just like Sudan is getting away with that in Darfur.

[Cubby]

The only reason isreal has problems is that they didn't do the merciful thing and immediantly boot out the palestinians in one fell swoop instead of let them remain on the land and slowly disposess them. The heartbreak woudl have been less over the long runsince there wouldn't be any palestinians in Isreal's borders so less long term hatred.

Go ahead, boot them out of their homes. I would actually like to see that. Seriously. Let's see the world reaction when 1.5 million refugees are robbed of their land so the Israelis can get their lebenstraum. What a field day that would be!!

"robbed of their land"? Don't talk like Hamas. I don't care if its true, it still sounds like their rhetoric

And Straha is right, if we could go back in time it would have been better for all the Palestinians (about 600,000 in 1948 not 1.5 Million) to have been moved into their own state, instead of staying in Israel. There will never be the right of return, so they are foolish to stay. What kind of morons stay in refugee camps for 55 YEARS! Normal people would have founded a country and moved on with their lives, but Palestinians love playing the victim card.

[dazzleman]

The only reason isreal has problems is that they didn't do the merciful thing and immediantly boot out the palestinians in one fell swoop instead of let them remain on the land and slowly disposess them. The heartbreak woudl have been less over the long runsince there wouldn't be any palestinians in Isreal's borders so less long term hatred.

Go ahead, boot them out of their homes. I would actually like to see that. Seriously. Let's see the world reaction when 1.5 million refugees are robbed of their land so the Israelis can get their lebenstraum. What a field day that would be!!

Beet, I didn't realize you were so hostile to Israel.

The situation around Israel's founding is highly ambiguous.

Still, there's obviously something seriously wrong with the Palestinians.  They have been utterly unable to do anything constructive for themselves in all these years, and it seems they'd rather be miserable, and have somebody else to blame, than do something constructive for themselves.

The Palestinians may have been wronged on some level, but I have zero sympathy for them.  I think they're a bunch of terrorists who would rather portray themselves as victims so as to provide an excuse for inflicting violence on other people than do anything constructive.

If the Palestinians wanted peace, they could have it tomorrow, along with huge amounts of Israeli and international aid to help them create an economy.  But they'd rather live in misery and send their children off as suicide bombers.  They hate Israelis and Jews, in general, more than they love their own children.  Sick people.

[afleitch]

I wholeheartedly agree with dazzleman. The Palestinian people have a serious problem on their hands; they have rushed to embrace radical polticized Islam alienating their sympathetic neighbours, the Palestinian Christians (who are now feeling to Israel along with gay Palestinians who have been subject to torture) and under Ehud Barak could have have a deal with Israel that gave them 99% of what they wanted. But they couldn't make the leap from terror to democracy and have been sulking in their own mismanagement ever since.

[Jens]

The only reason isreal has problems is that they didn't do the merciful thing and immediantly boot out the palestinians in one fell swoop instead of let them remain on the land and slowly disposess them. The heartbreak woudl have been less over the long runsince there wouldn't be any palestinians in Isreal's borders so less long term hatred.

Go ahead, boot them out of their homes. I would actually like to see that. Seriously. Let's see the world reaction when 1.5 million refugees are robbed of their land so the Israelis can get their lebenstraum. What a field day that would be!!

"robbed of their land"? Don't talk like Hamas. I don't care if its true, it still sounds like their rhetoric

And Straha is right, if we could go back in time it would have been better for all the Palestinians (about 600,000 in 1948 not 1.5 Million) to have been moved into their own state, instead of staying in Israel. There will never be the right of return, so they are foolish to stay. What kind of morons stay in refugee camps for 55 YEARS! Normal people would have founded a country and moved on with their lives, but Palestinians love playing the victim card.

I'm pretty sure that if you and your family had been driven away from the land your family had been living on for several hundred years you wouldn't just "found a country and move on with their lives"

Second, there are diffent kinds of Palestinian refugees. Those that where driven from their homes in the 1948-49 war, those driven away in the 1967 war and the internally displaced on the West Bank and Gaza Strip caused by the settler policies of various Israeli governments.

After WWII millions of Germans, Poles, Ukrainian and other people were forcefully moved from their homes by Stalin and his friendly Red Army. To this day there still is trouble with Sudeter Germans wanting their old property returned and other similar problems. You don't just move people - that is the sign of a tyrannic society, not a democracy. Remember, Pym, that the Palestinians are humans.