opinion of mandatory union dues......
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  opinion of mandatory union dues......
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#1
extortion (normal)
 
#2
positive  (silly populist and opebo)
 
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Author Topic: opinion of mandatory union dues......  (Read 2058 times)
WalterMitty
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« on: April 11, 2006, 08:10:57 PM »

option 1, obviously.
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Frodo
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2006, 08:31:47 PM »

Option 2 (normal)
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WalterMitty
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2006, 08:33:31 PM »


how is forcing someone to join an organization and extorting money from them 'normal'?

if unions are so great, why must they force people to join?
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Frodo
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2006, 08:46:22 PM »


how is forcing someone to join an organization and extorting money from them 'normal'?

if unions are so great, why must they force people to join?

The object of a union is to better the working conditions of its members -and if that happens to involve some measures that might be deemed as distasteful to some as you have outlined here, so be it.  The means are more than justified by the ends, considering how far we have come in improving working conditions since the beginning of the industrial era here in the United States.  It would not have happened without the emergence of labor unions, and labor unions would not have become as powerful and effective as they later became if they could not employ measures such as these.   
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Gabu
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2006, 08:49:53 PM »

The problem is that anything a union does for the employees makes the lives of all employees better.  If you make payments to the union optional, you'll get the usual free-rider problem, in that people will eventually figure out that if they stop paying money to the union, they'll still reap the benefits anyway, and the union will likely be woefully underfunded.

Of course, for those who oppose even the existence of unions themselves, this is not a problem, but creating a union and then making the payments to it by the employees entirely optional is just bad planning.
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angus
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2006, 09:21:33 PM »

Closed shop laws are extortion.  But you have an uphill battle in the Bay State, I'd imagine.


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WalterMitty
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2006, 09:56:33 PM »

The problem is that anything a union does for the employees makes the lives of all employees better.  If you make payments to the union optional, you'll get the usual free-rider problem, in that people will eventually figure out that if they stop paying money to the union, they'll still reap the benefits anyway, and the union will likely be woefully underfunded.

Of course, for those who oppose even the existence of unions themselves, this is not a problem, but creating a union and then making the payments to it by the employees entirely optional is just bad planning.

gabu, put the kool-aid down, i believe youve had too much.
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Richard
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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2006, 10:25:12 PM »

I have nothing against closed shop unions, as long as you offer employers the flip side option too: refusal to collectively bargain.  Balance it out.
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MODU
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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2006, 10:29:55 PM »


There really are no reason for Union dues anymore, since unions can act as if they are their own company, and can optain their funding from other sources.

Of course . . . large multi-company unions are archaic and no benefit the union members nor the companies they are involved with any more, but rather stiffle American production.
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opebo
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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2006, 10:31:34 PM »

WalterMitty, you are a disgusting masochist. 
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2006, 10:32:53 PM »

Option 1.  I would rather keep the money I earn than give it to a union.

You will earn more money as a result of the union existing than you would if the union did not exist, so despite the union dues that you have to pay, you're still financially better off with the union in place than you are without.
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Gabu
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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2006, 10:39:47 PM »

gabu, put the kool-aid down, i believe youve had too much.

I'm not arguing in favor or against unions; I'm only saying why it is that if you're going to have a union (which presumably would mean that you believe the union will help the employees), then there is no rational reason to make it optional.
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2006, 06:28:05 AM »

Option 1 (normal)
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MODU
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« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2006, 07:04:03 AM »


if unions are so great, why must they force people to join?

Fortunately, I was able to get around the unions when sailing commercially, which was a good thing since MEBA 2 and NMU were going at each others throats over a potential merger of their unions. 

You will earn more money as a result of the union existing than you would if the union did not exist, so despite the union dues that you have to pay, you're still financially better off with the union in place than you are without.

Falacy.  I was paid the same competitive rates as being non-union as those who were in the different unions at sea. 
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2006, 11:04:38 AM »


You will earn more money as a result of the union existing than you would if the union did not exist, so despite the union dues that you have to pay, you're still financially better off with the union in place than you are without.

Falacy.  I was paid the same competitive rates as being non-union as those who were in the different unions at sea. 

Of course, because the unions still existed.  You reaped the benefits of the union without being a member.  (But this concept has been mentioned twice before in the thread)
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WMS
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« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2006, 01:57:32 PM »

I have nothing against closed shop unions, as long as you offer employers the flip side option too: refusal to collectively bargain.  Balance it out.

Interesting point.
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Nym90
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« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2006, 11:49:40 PM »

The problem is that anything a union does for the employees makes the lives of all employees better.  If you make payments to the union optional, you'll get the usual free-rider problem, in that people will eventually figure out that if they stop paying money to the union, they'll still reap the benefits anyway, and the union will likely be woefully underfunded.

Of course, for those who oppose even the existence of unions themselves, this is not a problem, but creating a union and then making the payments to it by the employees entirely optional is just bad planning.

This fits my views exactly.

Everyone benefits from the existence of unions, regardless of whether they are in a union or not.

In that sense dues are similar to taxes. Even if you don't like the government and think we would be better off without it, you still have to pay taxes, because you still gain benefit from the government in the form of defense, schools, roads, etc.

Should taxes be optional?
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WalterMitty
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« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2006, 06:52:57 AM »

The problem is that anything a union does for the employees makes the lives of all employees better.  If you make payments to the union optional, you'll get the usual free-rider problem, in that people will eventually figure out that if they stop paying money to the union, they'll still reap the benefits anyway, and the union will likely be woefully underfunded.

Of course, for those who oppose even the existence of unions themselves, this is not a problem, but creating a union and then making the payments to it by the employees entirely optional is just bad planning.

This fits my views exactly.

Everyone benefits from the existence of unions, regardless of whether they are in a union or not.

In that sense dues are similar to taxes. Even if you don't like the government and think we would be better off without it, you still have to pay taxes, because you still gain benefit from the government in the form of defense, schools, roads, etc.

Should taxes be optional?

did you quote that out of the afl-cio handbook?

what a load of propoganda!
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2006, 07:59:41 AM »

That depends what you mean by "mandatory union dues". Do you mean that if you join a Union, you should have to pay dues towards it? Then yes. I also see no problem with money from dues going towards political parties, although I do support members being able to "contract out".

If you mean do I support the closed shop, then in most circumstances no.

Interestingly enough, Union membership rose over here last year.
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Bdub
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« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2006, 08:07:43 AM »

Option 1.  I would rather keep the money I earn than give it to a union.

You will earn more money as a result of the union existing than you would if the union did not exist, so despite the union dues that you have to pay, you're still financially better off with the union in place than you are without.
I would be payed what the market dictates, not what the union demands which is usually excessive to what the company can provide and afford.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2006, 08:11:24 AM »

not what the union demands which is usually excessive to what the company can provide and afford.

With a few exceptions (largely down to the public sector unions these days) that's not actually true.
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