Michigan Governor

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I'm really curious as to what people think on this--most everyone I've met (even some strong Dems.) and Dems. that I know have been strongly considering DeVos, due to MI's current economy.  I'm leaving this one open to everybody, but I'm really curious as to why MI voters pick who they pick.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Granholm; I think she's done an excellent job considering the tough times the state has gone through. The fundamental problems with Michigan's economy have existed for a long time, and I feel that her efforts have been concentrated in the right areas in attemping to improve that.

She has killed our economy.  We now have the 2nd worst economy behind Louisianna (because of Hurr. Katrina)--if we haven't passed them by now.  She has done nothing to improve our school system.  Dick DeVos has a plan--she's done nothing but ruin our wonderful state.  Thankfully she could never run for President--send her back to Canada.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Granholm; I think she's done an excellent job considering the tough times the state has gone through. The fundamental problems with Michigan's economy have existed for a long time, and I feel that her efforts have been concentrated in the right areas in attemping to improve that.

She has killed our economy.  We now have the 2nd worst economy behind Louisianna (because of Hurr. Katrina)--if we haven't passed them by now.  She has done nothing to improve our school system.  Dick DeVos has a plan--she's done nothing but ruin our wonderful state.  Thankfully she could never run for President--send her back to Canada.

we are also better then Washington State

OK, I'm sorry--3rd in the U.S.--but that's not a big improvement.  I do have to admit--not all of it is her fault.  Some of it lies with the fact that we have so many unions who are always going on strike and hurting companies.  I would like nothing better than for Delphi to end its contract w/ the UAW, and then see the UAW crash and burn.  They complain that their benefits and pay are getting cut, yet that have some of the best benefits and wages per hour out there!  That said, I would like to see Dick DeVos who is not somebody who has been in bed with all the Unions since he began politics.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Granholm; I think she's done an excellent job considering the tough times the state has gone through. The fundamental problems with Michigan's economy have existed for a long time, and I feel that her efforts have been concentrated in the right areas in attemping to improve that.

She has killed our economy.  We now have the 2nd worst economy behind Louisianna (because of Hurr. Katrina)--if we haven't passed them by now.  She has done nothing to improve our school system.  Dick DeVos has a plan--she's done nothing but ruin our wonderful state.  Thankfully she could never run for President--send her back to Canada.

we are also better then Washington State

OK, I'm sorry--3rd in the U.S.--but that's not a big improvement.  I do have to admit--not all of it is her fault.  Some of it lies with the fact that we have so many unions who are always going on strike and hurting companies.  I would like nothing better than for Delphi to end its contract w/ the UAW, and then see the UAW crash and burn.  They complain that their benefits and pay are getting cut, yet that have some of the best benefits and wages per hour out there!  That said, I would like to see Dick DeVos who is not somebody who has been in bed with all the Unions since he began politics.

Once people get something they dont want to give it up. It is human nature. Unions protect employees from the sometimes greedy, corrupt corporate execs and we need them. Dick DeVos needs to know how to work with the unions or else he would not get anything accomplished.

I disagree--we needED the unions, but now a company can't get away with mistreatment of workers (other than illegal immigrants, but that's a whole nother issue).  The only reason the unions like Granholm is b/c they live off of all the benefits and above-normal wages--so they want her to pay for their drugs and other stuff when they get older.  We need to get out of being dependent on welfare, or else the entire country will crash and burn like the USSR--to quote from a documentary--"spend into oblivion"--we out-spent money on missiles and made them bankrupt--its the same principle, except we're doing it to ourselves w/ welfare.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Granholm; I think she's done an excellent job considering the tough times the state has gone through. The fundamental problems with Michigan's economy have existed for a long time, and I feel that her efforts have been concentrated in the right areas in attemping to improve that.

She has killed our economy.  We now have the 2nd worst economy behind Louisianna (because of Hurr. Katrina)--if we haven't passed them by now.  She has done nothing to improve our school system.  Dick DeVos has a plan--she's done nothing but ruin our wonderful state.  Thankfully she could never run for President--send her back to Canada.

we are also better then Washington State

OK, I'm sorry--3rd in the U.S.--but that's not a big improvement.  I do have to admit--not all of it is her fault.  Some of it lies with the fact that we have so many unions who are always going on strike and hurting companies.  I would like nothing better than for Delphi to end its contract w/ the UAW, and then see the UAW crash and burn.  They complain that their benefits and pay are getting cut, yet that have some of the best benefits and wages per hour out there!  That said, I would like to see Dick DeVos who is not somebody who has been in bed with all the Unions since he began politics.

Once people get something they dont want to give it up. It is human nature. Unions protect employees from the sometimes greedy, corrupt corporate execs and we need them. Dick DeVos needs to know how to work with the unions or else he would not get anything accomplished.

I disagree--we needED the unions, but now a company can't get away with mistreatment of workers (other than illegal immigrants, but that's a whole nother issue).  The only reason the unions like Granholm is b/c they live off of all the benefits and above-normal wages--so they want her to pay for their drugs and other stuff when they get older.  We need to get out of being dependent on welfare, or else the entire country will crash and burn like the USSR--to quote from a documentary--"spend into oblivion"--we out-spent money on missiles and made them bankrupt--its the same principle, except we're doing it to ourselves w/ welfare.

Companies still get away with a lot of mistreatment in todays world. Maybe not like the kind they got away with back in the early years but they still do get away with somethings. People are getting their benifits and wages CUT DURING GRANHOLMS ADMINISTRATION. So the unions are warming up to the wrong person then. The only reason that they are getting cut is because GM, Ford and the other U.S. automotive companies are stubborn and will not invest in future gas saving cars and technology. They stubbornly cling to their belief that SUV'S are the way to go. Workers are paying for their mistakes. I dont think we are dependent on welfare. If we are then why are they cutting it so much? I actually believe we need to increase funding for it. But that is kinda hard because the Repulican controlled state legislature drags their feet everytime granholm wants to get something done.

What about the meeting about Hybrid cars w/ the Big 3 in D.C. right now?  Why would you want to increase funding for welfare, when the state is going into debt.  Granholm is a Canadian--they're whole healthcare system is gvt. run, and look what's happening there.  Granholm is a Canadian socialist (not in an evil bad way--just she's more social than most U.S. people).

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

In the end, I doubt that Mr. DeVos will be able to win. I know he means well, but he just won't be able to offset the recent Democratic lean of a Michigan statewide election dispite his best effort and monies spent.

Growing up in the Grand Rapids area, the name Devos was well known as the family behind "Scamway".  I remember those phone calls at dinner time from some young and energetic new member of the Amway team who was going to make you rich if you joined him in his new get rich quick plan.  To my knowlege, this never happened, or if it did, I never heard of it happening. 

Do we want a person who ran this type of business (even if it was successful) as our governor?

Let's not forget that Mr. DeVos sperheaded the school voucher proposal that failed in every county in 2000.

Lets not forget that there are pictues of Mr. DeVos with Carl Rove.  Lets not forget that he gave large contributions to President Bush who has horrible approval ratings in Michigan.  Lets not forget his connections to Jack Abrahmoff.  He also has ties to the religious right which is always contoversial.  For better or for worse these things will come up and will be his version of being "swiftboated"

Lets not forget that his wife has said that businesses are leaving Michigan because wages are too high.  Even if this is true, I pose this question to any conservative reading this.  Are your wages to high?  No matter how hard you have worked to get where you are, if you are employed, there is someone who wishes he could pay you less.

We must also not forget that the economy in Michigan is not Ms. Granholms fault any more than the national economy's woes are the direct fault of President Bush.  If there is one thing that I agree with conservatives on is that the free market runs itself.  If this is true, for a conservative to blame Ms. Granholm, is streaching a point of view to fit ones own partisianship.  General motors problem is that it is not competing in the maketplace by building cars people want to buy.  If they could sell more cars, the demands of the unions could be met with ease.

In the end, one has to wonder how a Billionaire can relate with Michigan's blue collar culture.  Since he is a Republican, I'm sure he will start talking about religion and values.  If he does, I want everyone to wonder if a billionaire can get to where he is without commiting a few sins.   Think about that one for a while.

I do have to agree w/ you about Amway--that will hurt him.  Also, I'd like to correct myself--I did not intend to blame the MI economy on Granholm--the point I meant to get across is that she is driving our state into debt and hurting small businesses with the taxes.

So what if his voucher proposal died?  What does that have anything to do w/ a 2006 Gubernatorial race?

Granholm's problem is that she would drive our state into more debt if she could--she's a social Canadian--it's my belief that she would want to make healthcare as a whole a gvt.-run system.  She wants to add more help and socialism to the state when the budget says we need to do just the opposite.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

The school voucher proposal is just an example of how his experimental far right views don't seem to jibe with most voters of both parties in the state of Michigan. 

In the end, Mr. DeVos will probably be the Republican Party's version of Geoffry Feiger, except his money will help him along a bit more.

Another thing that will swing things the governor's way are the current anti Republican trends going into next fall's elections.   Democrats are more eager to vote according to some polls.   And lets not forget that Michigan has straight party voting.  And lets not forget that Senator Stabenow is sky high in the polls.  It's not likely that enough Democrats will split their ticket to vote for Mr. DeVos.  He keeps company with people who they are voting against when they cast their vote for Senator Stabenow.

When you think of it,  it has cost Mr. DeVos several million dollars to break even with the Governor in the polls, and she has done no advertising.  When she does, there will likely be a bump in her favor that will put her out front.  As of yet, all we have seen are happy ads telling us what we want to hear from Mr. DeVos.  The mud has yet to be slung and when it does, the Amway man can't help but be on the shorter end of that stick.

I mean no disrespect to Mr. DeVos. I'm sure he is a real nice man, but I just don't want the Amway man as my governor no matter how many shortcomings Governor Granholm may be said to have. 

I wonder how many Amway calls I've hung up on over the years?  :-)

I have to disagree with you:
1. Geoffry Feiger didn't get voted into office because he's too liberal.
2. Honestly, most elections DO depend on who turns out.  Probably the only one that doesn't is D.C.'s presidential election.  So I agree with you on this point that if the Dems. do win it will be b/c of turn-out.  But remember, if the media promotes that, that will incite Reps. to come out and balance that out, while making Dems. think that they don't have to go out and vote.
3. So what if we have straight party voting (I think we got rid of it anyway)?
4. What does a Senator have to do with the governor?  U.S. vs. State politics.
5. I know of Dems., one in peticular (who voted for Mondale and McGovern, and would've voted against George Washington if he'd have been a Rep.) who has talked about voting for DeVos (but will vote for Granholm b/c she won't change on anything--buys gas from the same gas station even though it's up to 10 cents higher sometimes).

The one thing that will hurt him is the Amway Man tag.  Just curious, where are you from, and what party are you afiliated with?  Do you have an Atlas account with predictions?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I don't proclaim a political party, but am generally a pretty liberal guy.  Not one of those old school bleeding hearts, but one of the newer brand of liberals who does not believe that the constitution says anything about Big Brother legislating morality.   We are all Americans, and we are all liberal at heart.  Unless you plan to someday refuse your social security check, you have participated in a socialist ideal.  If you know a woman who votes, she can thank a liberal movement called Womans Sufferage for her right to do so.  Etc, etc.

Governor Granholm will never get any kind of government heathcare in her time, so I wouldn't worry about weather or not she likes it.   

I would contend that conservatives are the biggest fans of national heathcare - as long as it is not in the US.  After all, businesses who outsouce to China, India, etc, enjoy not only lower wages, but the fact that the government takes care of their employee's healthcare.  We have lost manufactuing opportunities here in Michigan because right accross the border in Canada (a capitalist country), healthcare is not the problem of the business owner.  And by the way,  the cost of helthcare has less to do with lawsuits than it does patients who are uninsured or underinsured who never pay the bills for their hospital stays.  And yes, for better or for worse, we will someday have it.  Eventually, after the problems with healthcare get worse and worse, the only way to get elected will be to get on that bandwagon.  I hope they do a better job than they did with Medicare D or we are all in deep trouble.

I see the Governors race tied closely to a Senatorial race.  I presume you vote consistantly Republican.  Given that fact, do you slip over to the other party very often while filling out your ballot?   Mr. DeVos is the Amway man and you agree that that is a problem.  Does that mean that you might vote for Governor Granholm.   Probably not, and that's what I was getting at.  Like you spoke of, it does happen, and I suppose some Stabinow voters will vote for DeVos.  But if she is still 20 or so points ahead in November, Mr. DeVos will not make it in my humble opinion.

When you say Feiger lost because he is too liberal, I contend that DeVos will loose because he is too conservative (ha ha).    Actually, Feiger probably lost because he was a bit odd.  Being liberal is not a bad thing that hinders political opportunity or else we wouldn't have so many of them elected to office (the same can be said for conservatives).  Once again, I say that we are all liberals at heart.  Just compare us to Saudi Arabia and you will understand what I mean.

By the way, to answer your question,  I live in the thumb area, and grew up in rural West Michigan.

I never said that I'm opposed to SOME socialism, however, not to the extent that the liberals would want it--that would bankrupt us.

I also have to say that not a lot of Dems. are as mad at Stabenow as they are at Granholm, so I think the crossover is going to be much bigger than you thought.

To answer your question, yes I have OCCASIONALLY crossed the party line, but not normally--most conservatives agree with what I believe.

You didn't answer my question about whether you have an atlas profile--If so, I'd like to see your prediction maps.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

DeVos

In four years of Granholm, we've had no plan except "Cool Cities" and blaming John Engler or Bush.

And you think Mr. DeVos would have a better plan, do you? He endorsed Granholms economic plan for god sakes!

When did he endorse her plan?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Granholm moved out of Canada when she was 4 years old. The idea that she is Canadian is fairly preposterous. Yes, she is technically an immigrant, but she was quite young.

Excellent points about Amway. I can't respect anyone who made a fortune out of running a pyramid scheme like that.

My calling her a Canadian was in reference to the fact that she's as socialistic as one, not that she's still a Canadian.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Granholm moved out of Canada when she was 4 years old. The idea that she is Canadian is fairly preposterous. Yes, she is technically an immigrant, but she was quite young.

Excellent points about Amway. I can't respect anyone who made a fortune out of running a pyramid scheme like that.

My calling her a Canadian was in reference to the fact that she's as socialistic as one, not that she's still a Canadian.

Ok, but given the spending cuts that have been enacted to balance the budget under her tenure, without raising taxes, that still doesn't really seem like an accurate description. You are entitled to your opinion.

What spending cuts has she made besides killing the MEAP test money, and not spending any money on fixing our roads (worst in the country)--speaking of roads, why don't we have ANY toll roads at all, or regulations as to truck weights--but that's not her fault--it's been like that for years.

My biggest problem w/ Granholm was the fact that she was all snuggled up w/ Detroit's Mayor Kilpatrick (until he had his 20 scandals)--anyone who is/was on his side is just foolish (speaking of him--how on EARTH did he get re-elected?).

The only county that Granholm has that's valuable is Wayne--and due to her "friendship" w/ Kwame--she may lose more than she expected there.  Not to mention that whatever small liberal part of Grand Rapids will now go to DeVos.  The only way I can honestly see her as beating him is playing the Amway card, which to some, will work, but others will seem like mud-slinging.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Granholm has done an admirable job. It's a shame she can't take Detroit away from Kwame.

What all are you referring to?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Granholm moved out of Canada when she was 4 years old. The idea that she is Canadian is fairly preposterous. Yes, she is technically an immigrant, but she was quite young.

Excellent points about Amway. I can't respect anyone who made a fortune out of running a pyramid scheme like that.

My calling her a Canadian was in reference to the fact that she's as socialistic as one, not that she's still a Canadian.

Ok, but given the spending cuts that have been enacted to balance the budget under her tenure, without raising taxes, that still doesn't really seem like an accurate description. You are entitled to your opinion.

What spending cuts has she made besides killing the MEAP test money, and not spending any money on fixing our roads (worst in the country)--speaking of roads, why don't we have ANY toll roads at all, or regulations as to truck weights--but that's not her fault--it's been like that for years.

My biggest problem w/ Granholm was the fact that she was all snuggled up w/ Detroit's Mayor Kilpatrick (until he had his 20 scandals)--anyone who is/was on his side is just foolish (speaking of him--how on EARTH did he get re-elected?).

The only county that Granholm has that's valuable is Wayne--and due to her "friendship" w/ Kwame--she may lose more than she expected there.  Not to mention that whatever small liberal part of Grand Rapids will now go to DeVos.  The only way I can honestly see her as beating him is playing the Amway card, which to some, will work, but others will seem like mud-slinging.

Granholm actually reenstated the MEAP money. I think the roads are tolarable and that if they are the worst in the country then we have a pretty good road system. I hate Kilpatrick but his get-out-the-vote effort is remarkable. that is how he won reelection. Granholm has Detroit, Inner Grand rRapids, Ann Arbor. I think whatever loses granholm has in wayne county will be offsett by her strong preformance in southwest michigan (the economy is well off their). Flint, saginAW and midland will revert to their dem roots and vote for her.

But didn't she set to discontinue the money in a yr. or 2?
You think that we have a "pretty good road system"--there's more pot holes than road!--Honestly--this is not a joke--some of our roads are worse than dirt roads.  I doubt Granholm will get much of Grand Rapids--or SW MI for that matter.  Who cares what their economy is like there--look @ the last election resuslts:
she won (big [20000+]):
Bay
Calhoun
Eaton
Genesee
Ingham
Kalamazoo
Muskegon
Oakland
Saginaw
Washtenaw
Wayne

Posthumus won:
Allegan
Berrien
Jackson
Kent
Livingston
Macomb
Monroe
Ottawa
St. Clair
BUT--most of those were bigger than (50,000+) than Granholm's--not to mention he won MORE smaller counties.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

There is no getting around the fact that Democrats own the vote in the most populous areas.  But lets not forget the UP.  Marquette is overwealmingly Democrat and many of the other counties in the far north go Democrat in most elections.  Even some of the rural counties that usually go Democrat can make a difference in a close race (Lake, Luce, Arinac, Gogebic, etc).  I don't, however, think it will be that close.  After all of the advertising on Governor Granholms side and the Democratic advantage going into '06, she will likely win with a decent margin.  With all of the ads Mr. DeVos is running, the best he seems to do is the mid forties.  With no ads run, the governor is in the mid forties.  When she runs ads, she will probably go to the upper forties and stay there.  The last days of the race will be stumping for that 2 or 3 point gap.  After the votes come in from the cities, I expect the governor to win.

Also, go to the Secretary of State's webpage and look at election results.  You will notice that the counties that have been recently won by Republicans in recent national or statewide elections have not been landslides for the Republican.  Some counties were won by President Bush in 2004 by no more people than could fill a large room.

I still feel that straight party voting will help the Governor, especially given the Democratic swing that appears to be going on this election cycle and in recent statewide elections across the state of Michigan.  We are not the same as other states (ie. Wyoming, Vermont) that have opposite parties win big.  If we were, there would have not been a push a few years back to eliminate straight party voting by Republicans who felt that it helped Democrats.

On another note, as I saw an ad tonight for Mr. DeVos on TV, I got the same feeling that I get when someone tries to sell me a used car. 

Just for the sake of arguement, I have yet to run accross anyone in my daily life who has said they are considering Mr. DeVos.  Not a single one.  But maybe that just says something about the company I keep.

By the way, I work in the public schools,  the MEAP scholarship is still in full effect.  It is set to be changed as the MEAP is eliminated for high school and replaced with the Merit Exam (ACT).  How it is to be changed is something that we are waiting for from the legislature more than the governor.

Someday, when I get around to it I will learn how to navigate this site better and do a few more things.  Everybody here seems nice and has interesting things to say.

I really don't see such a big advantage for Granholm w/ straight party voting (besides, didn't we get rid of that?).  Also, where is it that you live in MI?  Are most of the people you've talked to that dont' consider DeVos strong liberals, or fence people?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

DeVos

In four years of Granholm, we've had no plan except "Cool Cities" and blaming John Engler or Bush.

The other states are adding jobs. We're losing them. It's time for a less government conservative here.

As someone who has worked in economic development in the state, I can say that Cool Cities has had a positive effect on the communities in which it has been implemented, though the overall effect of it won't be felt for several years in all liklihood. But it certainly has made a difference in helping communities to attract and retain young talent and avoid "brain drain".

If all you can say is that Granholm got us some "Cool Cities," then isn't that kinda sad.  She hasn't done ANYTHING for Detroit (mostly our mayor's fault though).  A Governor should be doing more than making our state look "cool."

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Straight ticket voting was still in effect in 2004 in Michigan; I don't recall it being eliminated. It still was possible to fill out the entire partisan portion of the ballot with one stroke of the pen (we use optical scan ballots here, not sure what system others might have).

You are correct--I went on MI court of appeals site and found McDonald v. S.O.S. of Michigan and S.O.S. won (for straight-party).  I think most of MI uses scan ballots, although we only got rid of the old lever one's here in Lincoln Park (Detroit Area) maybe 6-8 yrs. ago.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

DeVos

In four years of Granholm, we've had no plan except "Cool Cities" and blaming John Engler or Bush.

The other states are adding jobs. We're losing them. It's time for a less government conservative here.

As someone who has worked in economic development in the state, I can say that Cool Cities has had a positive effect on the communities in which it has been implemented, though the overall effect of it won't be felt for several years in all liklihood. But it certainly has made a difference in helping communities to attract and retain young talent and avoid "brain drain".

If all you can say is that Granholm got us some "Cool Cities," then isn't that kinda sad.  She hasn't done ANYTHING for Detroit (mostly our mayor's fault though).  A Governor should be doing more than making our state look "cool."

Well yes, clearly that in and of itself won't solve everything by any means, but my point was that it is not mere fluff as it might sound, and has had a definite impact.

OK, but in your point you never said what other good stuff she's done for us, so what has she done other than cool cities?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

If he somehow wises up in time, he will still lose but by a much closer margin.   

What do you mean?  What aspects are you referring to, or is this just a general statement?