More facts on illegal aliens

[Alcon]

Not that it matters, but:

a) These are the same crimes that US citizens do
b) Not all illegals are evil
c) Not all illegals are good

If you have anything new that isn't covered in that grouping, then please feel free to post it. 

I disagree. I consider breaking the law to be evil, and that's just what these illegals are doing.

I'm not sure I can consider risking their livelihoods (and lives) to make a living for their family "evil," as much as I do not think they should be allowed to do so...

[Hatman 🍁]

Not that it matters, but:

a) These are the same crimes that US citizens do
b) Not all illegals are evil
c) Not all illegals are good

If you have anything new that isn't covered in that grouping, then please feel free to post it. 

I disagree. I consider breaking the law to be evil, and that's just what these illegals are doing.

I'm not sure I can consider risking their livelihoods (and lives) to make a living for their family "evil," as much as I do not think they should be allowed to do so...

Hey, they should have every right to enter the US legally to do so in my opinion.

[Gabu]

I disagree. I consider breaking the law to be evil, and that's just what these illegals are doing.

What exactly gives government officials that much authority to be able to dictate what is and isn't evil?

If the law stated that it is illegal to be named "Earl", would you become an evil person?

[John Dibble]

Now I know that a lot of people here don't like facts,

Careful, you're turning into jfern.

Excuse me John, but I cite facts from reputable publications.

I have not said all illegal aliens are vicious monsters, but I have cited specific cases of despicable behavior.

Bush keeps telling us that illegal aliens are "good hearted people,"   Well, maybe some are, but some are monsters.

What adevocated of amnestryt for illegal aliens want is to suppress the truth about illegal aliens.

All I'm saying is your attitude has become much like jfern's. If you don't like it, don't act like a jerk who thinks anyone who disagrees with him hates facts and is an idiot. Also, you're repeating the same talking points over and over again - you don't want "Bush says..." to be taken in the same way as "960 vs 40 is statistically signifigant" do you?

Let me see if I understand what you are saying.

You are not denying that the cases I have cited are both actual and factual.

So, if citation of such facts offends people who have opinions contradicted by those facts, so facts should be suppressed because it offends those people who don't want to deal with facts?

No, that's not even close to what I'm saying, and I have no clue where you gleamed such a thing from in my post. What I am really saying is that you're acting like a holier-than-thou-know-it-all jackass, which in turn will make people less receptive to your points, even if they are valid. I'm also saying that using the same talking points over and over again with no variation makes them lose meaning to many people, again regardless of validity. I'm not saying this out of hostility towards you, rather I'm saying it because I prefer this forum to remain civil and you just happen to be acting in a manner contrary to that.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Now I know that a lot of people here don't like facts,

Careful, you're turning into jfern.

Excuse me John, but I cite facts from reputable publications.

I have not said all illegal aliens are vicious monsters, but I have cited specific cases of despicable behavior.

Bush keeps telling us that illegal aliens are "good hearted people,"   Well, maybe some are, but some are monsters.

What adevocated of amnestryt for illegal aliens want is to suppress the truth about illegal aliens.

All I'm saying is your attitude has become much like jfern's. If you don't like it, don't act like a jerk who thinks anyone who disagrees with him hates facts and is an idiot. Also, you're repeating the same talking points over and over again - you don't want "Bush says..." to be taken in the same way as "960 vs 40 is statistically signifigant" do you?

Let me see if I understand what you are saying.

You are not denying that the cases I have cited are both actual and factual.

So, if citation of such facts offends people who have opinions contradicted by those facts, so facts should be suppressed because it offends those people who don't want to deal with facts?

No, that's not even close to what I'm saying, and I have no clue where you gleamed such a thing from in my post. What I am really saying is that you're acting like a holier-than-thou-know-it-all jackass, which in turn will make people less receptive to your points, even if they are valid. I'm also saying that using the same talking points over and over again with no variation makes them lose meaning to many people, again regardless of validity. I'm not saying this out of hostility towards you, rather I'm saying it because I prefer this forum to remain civil and you just happen to be acting in a manner contrary to that.

First, thank you for your civility.

Second, based on numerous posts at this forum, it appears to me that all too many people have come to buy they myth that illegal aliens are simply "good hearted people" coming here to seek employment.  While this is certainly true in some cases, in many cases it is manifestly false.  I could recite a large number of specific instances of the extreme destructivness of many illegals, but prefer to cite sources which cannot simply be dismissed out of hand.

Third, In a previous thread a number of people said they wanted "statistics" not facts.  Well, in that thread I cited statistics.  However, statistics do not tell the full story. 

Now, the reaction of many of the other posters on this thread semms to me to illustrate that they want amnesty period and don't care about the human suffering that such a policy will cause.

Consider some examples,  my city used to have two trauma centers, one of them headed by the gentleman who is currently Surgeon General.  It was closed due to the costs of serving illegal aliens.

Automobile insurance is unusually high here due to theft and dammage from illegal aliens.

I previously posted statistics on crime rates by illegal aliens.

My state spends a fortune educating the children of illegal aliens.

Please further note what was NOT posted by the amnesty advocates.  They did not express outrage at the harm done by illegal aliens but rather merely wish to silence those who point out such actions.

I am reminded of how the British House of Commons tried to silence W.L.S. Churchill each time he rose in the House to point out the inadequacy of the national defense, or to point out that Hitler was not a honorable man.

Unfortunately, too many people don't want to hear the truth, but there are many relatively quiet posts who do READ the posts, and who I suspect are appalled by the arrogance of those who dismiss mere 'facts.'

[Gabu]

Now, the reaction of many of the other posters on this thread semms to me to illustrate that they want amnesty period and don't care about the human suffering that such a policy will cause.

Or, perhaps it illustrates that they don't want to talk to someone who doesn't want to listen to opposing viewpoints.

[Nym90]

Now I know that a lot of people here don't like facts,

Careful, you're turning into jfern.

Excuse me John, but I cite facts from reputable publications.

I have not said all illegal aliens are vicious monsters, but I have cited specific cases of despicable behavior.

Bush keeps telling us that illegal aliens are "good hearted people,"   Well, maybe some are, but some are monsters.

What adevocated of amnestryt for illegal aliens want is to suppress the truth about illegal aliens.

All I'm saying is your attitude has become much like jfern's. If you don't like it, don't act like a jerk who thinks anyone who disagrees with him hates facts and is an idiot. Also, you're repeating the same talking points over and over again - you don't want "Bush says..." to be taken in the same way as "960 vs 40 is statistically signifigant" do you?

Let me see if I understand what you are saying.

You are not denying that the cases I have cited are both actual and factual.

So, if citation of such facts offends people who have opinions contradicted by those facts, so facts should be suppressed because it offends those people who don't want to deal with facts?

No, that's not even close to what I'm saying, and I have no clue where you gleamed such a thing from in my post. What I am really saying is that you're acting like a holier-than-thou-know-it-all jackass, which in turn will make people less receptive to your points, even if they are valid. I'm also saying that using the same talking points over and over again with no variation makes them lose meaning to many people, again regardless of validity. I'm not saying this out of hostility towards you, rather I'm saying it because I prefer this forum to remain civil and you just happen to be acting in a manner contrary to that.

First, thank you for your civility.

Second, based on numerous posts at this forum, it appears to me that all too many people have come to buy they myth that illegal aliens are simply "good hearted people" coming here to seek employment.  While this is certainly true in some cases, in many cases it is manifestly false.  I could recite a large number of specific instances of the extreme destructivness of many illegals, but prefer to cite sources which cannot simply be dismissed out of hand.

Third, In a previous thread a number of people said they wanted "statistics" not facts.  Well, in that thread I cited statistics.  However, statistics do not tell the full story. 

Now, the reaction of many of the other posters on this thread semms to me to illustrate that they want amnesty period and don't care about the human suffering that such a policy will cause.

Consider some examples,  my city used to have two trauma centers, one of them headed by the gentleman who is currently Surgeon General.  It was closed due to the costs of serving illegal aliens.

Automobile insurance is unusually high here due to theft and dammage from illegal aliens.

I previously posted statistics on crime rates by illegal aliens.

My state spends a fortune educating the children of illegal aliens.

Please further note what was NOT posted by the amnesty advocates.  They did not express outrage at the harm done by illegal aliens but rather merely wish to silence those who point out such actions.

I am reminded of how the British House of Commons tried to silence W.L.S. Churchill each time he rose in the House to point out the inadequacy of the national defense, or to point out that Hitler was not a honorable man.

Unfortunately, too many people don't want to hear the truth, but there are many relatively quiet posts who do READ the posts, and who I suspect are appalled by the arrogance of those who dismiss mere 'facts.'

Godwin's Law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

[John Dibble]

Now, the reaction of many of the other posters on this thread semms to me to illustrate that they want amnesty period and don't care about the human suffering that such a policy will cause.

Or, perhaps it illustrates that they don't want to talk to someone who doesn't want to listen to opposing viewpoints.

Bingo, which is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Carl, if you act like you know everything and that anyone who disagrees with you is inherently wrong, expect poor results.

Second, based on numerous posts at this forum, it appears to me that all too many people have come to buy they myth that illegal aliens are simply "good hearted people" coming here to seek employment.  While this is certainly true in some cases, in many cases it is manifestly false.

And you seem to be operating under the assumption that people who are disagreeing with you believe that every single illegal immigrant is 'good hearted'. But the truth of the matter is that they feel you are grossly exaggerating the problem. They might agree with you more than you think, but if you are hostile you're not going to help your position.

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And I could cite numberous instances of white male pedophiles. But from a handful of individual examples one cannot derive the typicality of pedophelia among white men or the typicality of criminal tendencies of illegal aliens. It's anecdotal evidence. Further, you may also fall into using the availability heuristic in a negative manner. This brings me to the next point...

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Compiled in a proper, scientific manner, statistics can be very useful and are indeed factual. As above, I can't really tell anything about rates from a few individual examples, but statistically compiling data can give you a better general idea of the way things are.

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Again, you're operating under what is likely a false assumption. For those who do favor an amnesty period, it is doubtful they have the same perspective on things as you do. Perhaps they simply don't see the harm(or perhaps they do but think you are exaggerating it, as a debate tip you should always look for weaknesses in your argument), or perhaps if they do they believe there are benefits to the policy that outweigh the drawbacks - these are far more likely than them just not giving a crap about harm caused.

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Ok, I've yet to see many people actually try to silence anyone. Besides, again, back to your general attitude lately - it might seem to some that you want to silence the amnesty advocates given your hostility. If you are hostile, expect a hostile reaction.[/quote]

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See what I said above. Also, I'd bet you've dismissed facts in the past if they haven't agreed with your beliefs - everyone does it from time to time, usually not on purpose but at a more subconcious level. And again, people are more likely to do it if the one presenting the information is highly hostile to questioning.

And in closing, I'm going to remind you that Georgia does have illegal immigrants in it. Not the amount of the border states, but we have a fair number to deal with. I'm not blind to the problems that some of them cause. However, I try to keep my cool - I think part of your problem is that you are passionate about the issue, and you let that passion rule your reason at times. Never a good idea. So my final piece of advice is to keep a cool head.

[agcatter]

Much easier to keep a "cool head" about illegals if you don't live in one of the 4 border states, Colorado, Nevada, or Utah.  However, whether it is Georgia, Virginia, or any other state this side of New England, the swarm of illegals is fanning out across the country.  You'll be dealing with a massive problem very soon - sooner than you think and trust me.  You aren't going to like it.

[Hatman 🍁]

I disagree. I consider breaking the law to be evil, and that's just what these illegals are doing.

What exactly gives government officials that much authority to be able to dictate what is and isn't evil?

If the law stated that it is illegal to be named "Earl", would you become an evil person?

No, but I believe you have to have permission to enter a country, which illegals do not have.

[??????????]

Much easier to keep a "cool head" about illegals if you don't live in one of the 4 border states, Colorado, Nevada, or Utah.  However, whether it is Georgia, Virginia, or any other state this side of New England, the swarm of illegals is fanning out across the country.  You'll be dealing with a massive problem very soon - sooner than you think and trust me.  You aren't going to like it.

You don't think Florida has a huge illegal problem? ha

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I want to hear some Native American's views on immigration. What do the neglected people of such areas as Shannon and Buffalo county South Dakota have to say to this?

[Gabu]

I disagree. I consider breaking the law to be evil, and that's just what these illegals are doing.

What exactly gives government officials that much authority to be able to dictate what is and isn't evil?

If the law stated that it is illegal to be named "Earl", would you become an evil person?

No, but I believe you have to have permission to enter a country, which illegals do not have.

Sure.  I do too, on the whole.  But to call the people "evil"?  Come on.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Here's a question: Some Native American wanders across the border. Is he an illegal immigrant?

[??????????]

Here's a question: Some Native American wanders across the border. Is he an illegal immigrant?

Is he a citizen of the US? What a dumb question. But not suprising coming from Mr 940 heads and 60 tails is statistically significant.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Here's a question: Some Native American wanders across the border. Is he an illegal immigrant?

Is he a citizen of the US? What a dumb question. But not suprising coming from Mr 940 heads and 60 tails is statistically significant.

No, he was born 1 mile from the border in Canada.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

We kept black people down well into the age of televeision(over 350 years) so it should be perfectly possible to do the same with illegals.

[Alcon]

Here's a question: Some Native American wanders across the border. Is he an illegal immigrant?

Is he a citizen of the US? What a dumb question. But not suprising coming from Mr 940 heads and 60 tails is statistically significant.

No, he was born 1 mile from the border in Canada.

I am not quite sure where you're going with this.  First of all, no one in Shannon or Buffalo Counties is going to be "wandering across the border."  And second of all, I don't see why you distinguish between Native Americans and whites in this case.  Could you clarify what you are implying?

[Gabu]

Here's a question: Some Native American wanders across the border. Is he an illegal immigrant?

Is he a citizen of the US? What a dumb question. But not suprising coming from Mr 940 heads and 60 tails is statistically significant.

No, he was born 1 mile from the border in Canada.

I am not quite sure where you're going with this.  First of all, no one in Shannon or Buffalo Counties is going to be "wandering across the border."  And second of all, I don't see why you distinguish between Native Americans and whites in this case.  Could you clarify what you are implying?

I imagine that his point is that the European settlers were the original illegal immigrants, having not received any permission from the locals to stay.

[Alcon]

Here's a question: Some Native American wanders across the border. Is he an illegal immigrant?

Is he a citizen of the US? What a dumb question. But not suprising coming from Mr 940 heads and 60 tails is statistically significant.

No, he was born 1 mile from the border in Canada.

I am not quite sure where you're going with this.  First of all, no one in Shannon or Buffalo Counties is going to be "wandering across the border."  And second of all, I don't see why you distinguish between Native Americans and whites in this case.  Could you clarify what you are implying?

I imagine that his point is that the European settlers were the original illegal immigrants, having not received any permission from the locals to stay.

Yeah, I think you are right, but I'm not clear on the one mile Canada border argument still.

[Gabu]

Yeah, I think you are right, but I'm not clear on the one mile Canada border argument still.

I don't really know what that part is about.

[MODU]

Much easier to keep a "cool head" about illegals if you don't live in one of the 4 border states, Colorado, Nevada, or Utah.  However, whether it is Georgia, Virginia, or any other state this side of New England, the swarm of illegals is fanning out across the country.  You'll be dealing with a massive problem very soon - sooner than you think and trust me.  You aren't going to like it.

Again, like the advice Alcon and I have given to Carl . . . it's ok for us to react differently to the issue and yet for us to understand what you are going through at the same time.  If I was in Texas (where my sister and her family lives) right now, my attitude would be the same as it is now.

[John Dibble]

Much easier to keep a "cool head" about illegals if you don't live in one of the 4 border states, Colorado, Nevada, or Utah.  However, whether it is Georgia, Virginia, or any other state this side of New England, the swarm of illegals is fanning out across the country.  You'll be dealing with a massive problem very soon - sooner than you think and trust me.  You aren't going to like it.

And in closing, I'm going to remind you that Georgia does have illegal immigrants in it.

Now, let me tell you this - keeping a cool head doesn't mean sitting on your ass and doing nothing. What it means is not panicking or becoming a complete jackass about it. If you've got a problem with illegals, it doesn't mean you should be a jerk to the people who don't, or the people who don't view the problem to be as big as you do for that matter.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Much easier to keep a "cool head" about illegals if you don't live in one of the 4 border states, Colorado, Nevada, or Utah.  However, whether it is Georgia, Virginia, or any other state this side of New England, the swarm of illegals is fanning out across the country.  You'll be dealing with a massive problem very soon - sooner than you think and trust me.  You aren't going to like it.

And in closing, I'm going to remind you that Georgia does have illegal immigrants in it.

Now, let me tell you this - keeping a cool head doesn't mean sitting on your ass and doing nothing. What it means is not panicking or becoming a complete jackass about it. If you've got a problem with illegals, it doesn't mean you should be a jerk to the people who don't, or the people who don't view the problem to be as big as you do for that matter.

Mr. Dibble,

It seems to me that your rhetoric has become rather heated.

I haven't called anyone a "jerk," but you have.

I have cited facts, you have cited opinions.

I realize that facts do make people uncomfortable when they run counter to opinions, but to me this does not mean that facts should be suppresed, nor that those who insist that 'the emperor has no clothes' should be silenced.

[MODU]

I realize that facts do make people uncomfortable when they run counter to opinions, but to me this does not mean that facts should be suppresed, nor that those who insist that 'the emperor has no clothes' should be silenced.

Nor does it mean that people who disagree with you (facts or not) should be silenced either.