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adam
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« on: June 05, 2006, 08:28:25 pm »
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1) Can a former president who was elected to one term but lost their re-election bid, run in another election for their second term?

2) Can a president who never served as vice-president run for vice-president after their terms as president have expired?
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« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2006, 08:31:14 pm »
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1) Can a former president who was elected to one term but lost their re-election bid, run in another election for their second term?

2) Can a president who never served as vice-president run for vice-president after their terms as president have expired?

1. Yes
2. Yes, but I bet if Bill Clinton tried it, the 5 partisan Republicans on the SCOTUS would veto it.
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2006, 08:33:35 pm »
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1) Can a former president who was elected to one term but lost their re-election bid, run in another election for their second term?

See Grover Cleveland.  He's historical proof that you can.

2) Can a president who never served as vice-president run for vice-president after their terms as president have expired?

I'm not sure.  I could have sworn that one must be eligible for the presidency to be eligible for the vice-presidency, which, if true, would mean the answer is no, but I don't fully recall.
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« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2006, 08:44:09 pm »
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As for #2, very educated people will disagree on this count.  It's incredibly unclear.
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2006, 01:37:29 am »
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2) Can a president who never served as vice-president run for vice-president after their terms as president have expired?

From the XIIth Amendment:
"But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States."

From the XXIInd Amendment:
"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once"

You'd have to cook up some very convoluted logic to argue that a person who is ineligible to be elected to the office is somehow still eligible to the office.  It certainly woud go against the clear intent of the XXIInd.

However, I think it would be possible for such a person to become acting President under the XXth Amendment in the case of a failue of either a President or Vice President to be elected, who would serve until one or the other office were to be filled.
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2006, 02:07:20 am »
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2) Can a president who never served as vice-president run for vice-president after their terms as president have expired?

From the XIIth Amendment:
"But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States."

From the XXIInd Amendment:
"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once"

You'd have to cook up some very convoluted logic to argue that a person who is ineligible to be elected to the office is somehow still eligible to the office.  It certainly woud go against the clear intent of the XXIInd.

However, I think it would be possible for such a person to become acting President under the XXth Amendment in the case of a failue of either a President or Vice President to be elected, who would serve until one or the other office were to be filled.

But someone who is term limited is not constitutionally ineligible to be President. Clearly, if Bill Clinton was Secretary of State and the requisite people died, he'd become President. The 22nd amendment is merely a limitation on who can be elected President.

Of course none of that would stop the 5 partisan activist conservative Republicans on SCOTUS from vetoing Bill Clinton being elected VP. 
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2006, 02:09:34 am »
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But someone who is term limited is not constitutionally ineligible to be President. Clearly, if Bill Clinton was Secretary of State and the requisite people died, he'd become President. The 22nd amendment is merely a limitation on who can be elected President.

Right, I suppose "elected" is the key word.
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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2006, 06:17:25 am »
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2) Can a president who never served as vice-president run for vice-president after their terms as president have expired?

From the XIIth Amendment:
"But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States."

From the XXIInd Amendment:
"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once"

You'd have to cook up some very convoluted logic to argue that a person who is ineligible to be elected to the office is somehow still eligible to the office.  It certainly woud go against the clear intent of the XXIInd.

However, I think it would be possible for such a person to become acting President under the XXth Amendment in the case of a failue of either a President or Vice President to be elected, who would serve until one or the other office were to be filled.

But someone who is term limited is not constitutionally ineligible to be President. Clearly, if Bill Clinton was Secretary of State and the requisite people died, he'd become President. The 22nd amendment is merely a limitation on who can be elected President.

Of course none of that would stop the 5 partisan activist conservative Republicans on SCOTUS from vetoing Bill Clinton being elected VP. 

I'm far from sure, because there have been Secretaries of State, Kissinger and Albright, that were not eligible to be president; Kissinger was was three spots away at two points.  There usually are ineligible people in the line of succession.

I'd make the same argument about G. W. Bush, however.  In theory, in 2009, he could be elected Speaker; there isn't a requirement that the Speaker be a member.  I would question if he could become President in that circumstance.
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2006, 07:20:01 am »
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2) Can a president who never served as vice-president run for vice-president after their terms as president have expired?

From the XIIth Amendment:
"But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States."

From the XXIInd Amendment:
"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once"

You'd have to cook up some very convoluted logic to argue that a person who is ineligible to be elected to the office is somehow still eligible to the office.  It certainly woud go against the clear intent of the XXIInd.

However, I think it would be possible for such a person to become acting President under the XXth Amendment in the case of a failue of either a President or Vice President to be elected, who would serve until one or the other office were to be filled.

But someone who is term limited is not constitutionally ineligible to be President. Clearly, if Bill Clinton was Secretary of State and the requisite people died, he'd become President. The 22nd amendment is merely a limitation on who can be elected President.

Of course none of that would stop the 5 partisan activist conservative Republicans on SCOTUS from vetoing Bill Clinton being elected VP. 

I'm far from sure, because there have been Secretaries of State, Kissinger and Albright, that were not eligible to be president; Kissinger was was three spots away at two points.  There usually are ineligible people in the line of succession.

I'd make the same argument about G. W. Bush, however.  In theory, in 2009, he could be elected Speaker; there isn't a requirement that the Speaker be a member.  I would question if he could become President in that circumstance.

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No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States.

This text from Article II states that a foreign-born citizen couldn't be president at all. Now, were George W. Bush the speaker, and he ascended to the presidency, he could constitutionally serve, as the 22nd amendment merely states that a two term president could not be elected for a third.

There's a different between being ineligible for the presidency and ineligible for election.
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2006, 10:44:42 pm »
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1) Can a former president who was elected to one term but lost their re-election bid, run in another election for their second term?

2) Can a president who never served as vice-president run for vice-president after their terms as president have expired?

1. Yes, the prohibition is only against serving or running for a third term, not for running for a second term multiple times. So George HW Bush or Jimmy Carter, for example, certainly could run for President again legally. George W Bush and Bill Clinton, of course, could not run again.

2. Yes, as long as the ex-President is still eligible to be President. If he served or was elected to two terms as President (with a term served being defined as at least half of a four year term), he cannot serve as VP; the VP must meet the same requirements as the President. Whether the ex-President ever served as VP in the past is irrelevant.

Bill Clinton and George W Bush could not be VP, but George HW Bush or Jimmy Carter could.
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2006, 01:31:01 am »
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2. Yes, as long as the ex-President is still eligible to be President. If he served or was elected to two terms as President (with a term served being defined as at least half of a four year term), he cannot serve as VP; the VP must meet the same requirements as the President. Whether the ex-President ever served as VP in the past is irrelevant.

Bill Clinton and George W Bush could not be VP, but George HW Bush or Jimmy Carter could.

But the twenty-second amendment limiting a president to two terms says that someone cannot be elected more than twice.  It says nothing about becoming president through the line of succession.
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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2006, 03:28:32 am »
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1) Can a former president who was elected to one term but lost their re-election bid, run in another election for their second term?
Yes, of course.
2) Can a president who never served as vice-president run for vice-president after their terms as president have expired?
No. There's a fairly misleading interpretation based on the constitution using two different words for the same concept that claims he can.
Notice it doesn't matter how often he has served as VP, as that office is not term-limited.
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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2006, 09:01:19 am »
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2. Yes, as long as the ex-President is still eligible to be President. If he served or was elected to two terms as President (with a term served being defined as at least half of a four year term), he cannot serve as VP; the VP must meet the same requirements as the President. Whether the ex-President ever served as VP in the past is irrelevant.

Bill Clinton and George W Bush could not be VP, but George HW Bush or Jimmy Carter could.

But the twenty-second amendment limiting a president to two terms says that someone cannot be elected more than twice.  It says nothing about becoming president through the line of succession.

I should point out, however, the Constitution is completely silent on succession beyond the VP position, which might be the reason it isn't clearer.

Further, anyone in the line of succession is "elected" at some point, even if this "election" is by one House of Congress, in the confirmation process.

We also have to look at the intent of the framers.

It is believed, for example, that the intent of the framers in the separation of powers is that a Speaker becoming President would have to resign to become "acting President," even though not specified in the Constitution.

Basically, W. J. Clinton could become President, or be VP, now.  On January 20, 2007, G. H. W. Bush will not be able to be elected President or VP, or leave office and "become" President or "acting President," again.  At that point, of all the natural born US citizens that were resident for 14 years prior, only GHW Bush and WJ Clinton will be ineligible.
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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2006, 03:19:03 pm »
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I should point out, however, the Constitution is completely silent on succession beyond the VP position, which might be the reason it isn't clearer.

Not completely silent, merely mostly. Atricle II Section 1 Clause 5 states:  "In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by Law provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected."

The XXth and XXVth set the procedure for when the Vice President takes over and what happens when there is a failure to be either a P-elect or a VO -elect, but the Constitutional grant of authority of what to do when there is no President or VP goes back to the beginning

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It is believed, for example, that the intent of the framers in the separation of powers is that a Speaker becoming President would have to resign to become "acting President," even though not specified in the Constitution.

Even if one holds that it's not in the constitution, it is spelled out in 3 USC 19 that the Speaker or President pro tem would have to resign in order to become either President or acting President.

Quote
On January 20, 2007, G. H. W. Bush will not be able to be elected President or VP, or leave office and "become" President or "acting President," again.

Actually, W's already ineligible and has been since January 20, 2003 to be elected again.  The prohibition against him or Clinton becoming acting President is legislative rather than Constitutional, since Congress does have authority to allow persons elected twice to serve as acting President, it merely has chosen to not so allow.  For example, I could see the law be changed to allow a former President to serve as acting President for a day if we got another President who refused to be sworn in on a Sunday.
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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2006, 05:45:59 pm »
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But someone who is term limited is not constitutionally ineligible to be President. Clearly, if Bill Clinton was Secretary of State and the requisite people died, he'd become President. The 22nd amendment is merely a limitation on who can be elected President.
Jfern is perfectly correct.

There is a difference between the language of Article II and the language of the Twenty-Second Amendment. The former states, "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President, etc." The Twenty-Second Amendment, on the other hand, states, "No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, etc." Thus, Article II imposes an eligibility requirement, while the Twenty-Second Amendment relates not to eligibilty but to elections.

Certainly, no one can make a reasonable argument that Bill Clinton is prohibited by the text of the Twenty-Second Amendment from succeeding to the office of President. Surely, if Clinton can succeed to the office of President, then he is not "ineligible."

It is believed, for example, that the intent of the framers in the separation of powers is that a Speaker becoming President would have to resign to become "acting President," even though not specified in the Constitution.
I think that the Constitution goes even further than that: the text implies that neither the Speaker, nor the President pro tempore, nor any other member of the legislative branch, is entitled to succeed to the Presidency, with or without resigning. If both the Presidency and the Vice Presidency are vacant, Congress is only empowered to provide "what Officer shall then act as President," the term "Officer" here being equivalent to "Officer of the United States." But members of Congress, the Speaker included, are not Officers of the United States.
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« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2006, 09:23:49 pm »
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But someone who is term limited is not constitutionally ineligible to be President. Clearly, if Bill Clinton was Secretary of State and the requisite people died, he'd become President. The 22nd amendment is merely a limitation on who can be elected President.
Jfern is perfectly correct.

There is a difference between the language of Article II and the language of the Twenty-Second Amendment. The former states, "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President, etc." The Twenty-Second Amendment, on the other hand, states, "No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, etc." Thus, Article II imposes an eligibility requirement, while the Twenty-Second Amendment relates not to eligibilty but to elections.

Certainly, no one can make a reasonable argument that Bill Clinton is prohibited by the text of the Twenty-Second Amendment from succeeding to the office of President. Surely, if Clinton can succeed to the office of President, then he is not "ineligible."



Well does "eligible to the Office of President" mean "eligible for election to the Office of President?"
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« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2006, 10:47:47 pm »
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Well does "eligible to the Office of President" mean "eligible for election to the Office of President?"
It would seem to mean "eligible to hold the Presidency," not "eligible for election."
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« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2006, 11:13:50 pm »
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Well does "eligible to the Office of President" mean "eligible for election to the Office of President?"
It would seem to mean "eligible to hold the Presidency," not "eligible for election."

Well, that has been somewhat unclear.  Tyler was thought of as being "acting President."  Using the logic you are suggesting, someone ineligible for election, only, would be eligible to succeed to the presidency, even if not a citizen.

I would point out that those in the line of succession are "elected" at some point, even if that "election" is confirmation by the Senate.
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« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2006, 11:58:44 pm »
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Using the logic you are suggesting, someone ineligible for election, only, would be eligible to succeed to the presidency, even if not a citizen.
How so? Under Article II, an individual is ineligible to become President unless he is a natural born citizen.
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« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2006, 12:45:17 am »
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Using the logic you are suggesting, someone ineligible for election, only, would be eligible to succeed to the presidency, even if not a citizen.
How so? Under Article II, an individual is ineligible to become President unless he is a natural born citizen.

Because Article II assumes that the only way for the President to be elected is to be elected president.

That's why the XII Amendment contains the lines, "But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States."

If you are correct, prior to the XII, a non natural born citizen could be elected VP and then succeed to the presidency.
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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2006, 09:22:57 am »
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Because Article II assumes that the only way for the President to be elected is to be elected president.
So what? The text, interpreted according to its plain meaning, suggests that no-one may be President unless he meets certain qualifications. The fact that, at some particular time, the only way of becoming President was being elected President, does not change the plain meaning of the text.
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« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2006, 11:36:00 am »
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Because Article II assumes that the only way for the President to be elected is to be elected president.
So what? The text, interpreted according to its plain meaning, suggests that no-one may be President unless he meets certain qualifications. The fact that, at some particular time, the only way of becoming President was being elected President, does not change the plain meaning of the text.


Well then, the text of the two term limit might not have anticipated someone becoming President other than by election; this could be properly considered a qualification.
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« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2006, 11:40:17 am »
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Well then, the text of the two term limit might not have anticipated someone becoming President other than by election; this could be properly considered a qualification.
The text clearly does anticipate people becoming President other than by election. It reads, "No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once." Considering the bolded text, how can it be asserted that the Twenty-Second Amendment did not anticipate succession to the presidency?
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« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2006, 11:59:07 am »
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Well then, the text of the two term limit might not have anticipated someone becoming President other than by election; this could be properly considered a qualification.
The text clearly does anticipate people becoming President other than by election. It reads, "No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once." Considering the bolded text, how can it be asserted that the Twenty-Second Amendment did not anticipate succession to the presidency?

The same way that Article II prevents someone not a citizen from serving via succession.

I would argue that to be eligible to serve, the person must be eligible to be elected and that any succession is by necessity a consequence of election.
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« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2006, 12:46:26 pm »
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The same way that Article II prevents someone not a citizen from serving via succession.
How can the Twenty-Second Amendment prevent someone from serving as President in the same way as Article II, when the language of the two is so clearly different. The former speaks of being elected; the latter speaks of being eligible. The two are very different things.

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I would argue that to be eligible to serve, the person must be eligible to be elected...
I think that you are reading too much into it. In order to be "eligible" to serve, an individual must meet the eligibility qualifications set forth in Article II--nothing more, nothing less.
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