Interesting dialogue going on between liberals and libertarians

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

The Libertarian Dem

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http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/7/131550/7297

CATO writer answers Markos on "Libertarian Democrats"

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http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/8/181842/0837?detail=f

Both diaries have several hundred comments of discussion.

[bullmoose88]

Sounds good to me.

Question is, can the "Green"-type democrats and the populist type democrats take an infusion of libertarians into the fold?

[ilikeverin]

Sounds good to me.

Question is, can the "Green"-type democrats and the populist type democrats take an infusion of libertarians into the fold?

Over my dead body

[NewFederalist]

Good post, jfern. Thanks for bringing this up. Socialism got its first real start in the U.S. via the Democratic Party in the '30s and now it may be the same party that reaches out for new ideas to move forward today. I have believed for some time that of the two dominant parties the Democrats offer the best chance for real change. Perhaps the party that borrowed ideas from Eugene V.Debs and Norman Thomas will now look to borrow some from Ed Clark and Harry Browne. Times change and the Democrats seem to be in the vanguard.

[Cubby]

CATO writer answers Markos on "Libertarian Democrats"

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http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/8/181842/0837?detail=f

Both diaries have several hundred comments of discussion.

Those were interesting articles, and have several good points. I'd like to see our party become welcoming to Libertarians, we already are on the social front, just not the economic one. The only flaw I found was this gem:

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ROTFL

[John Dibble]

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ROTFL

To a degree that is true - corporations get certain special considerations that other businesses don't. Many libertarians are opposed to this.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Sounds good to me.

Question is, can the "Green"-type democrats and the populist type democrats take an infusion of libertarians into the fold?

Over my dead body

Us libertarian dems will work with the GOP to get the "green" type dems, populist dems and the minority special interests(blacks, unions, animal rights people) sent to gitmo so they wont' be an issue.

[David S]

If I voted for a Democrat would I be getting a Libertarian Dem or the basic garden variety Dem?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

If you are interested in reading more on this discussion, there are some more diaries here:
http://www.dailykos.com/tag/libertarianism
http://www.dailykos.com/tag/libertarian

Remember, these are diaries from random people on DailyKos.

Here are some good ones.
I'm a Libertarian, a Democrat, and a Kossack
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/8/102448/9849

Utah libertarians swinging Democratic
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/9/95649/39557

A Libertarian Liberal's Personal Perspective
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/9/31743/71044

[MaC]

Look ma! the liberals are trying out a new label.

[A18]

The libertarian believes in the non-aggression principle, which means that the right of each person to his life, liberty, and property is inviolable. To the extent that corporations receive special privileges from the state that exempt employees from ordinary liability, the libertarian opposes them and their interests.

But that does not appear to be what this 'conversation' is about. These are merely liberals who believe that government should violate the non-aggression principle for the 'good' of the public. In other words, they are interventionists who oppose laissez-faire. This is not libertarianism.

The libertarian does not consider any non-coercive activity to be an infringement upon anyone's freedoms; and the libertarian does not believe in positive 'rights' or 'freedoms,' which he considers to be a blatant violation of true liberty, which he defines as the absence of coercion. Positive 'rights' can exist only to the extent that a person or group of people are denied their absolute right to ownership in themselves and their property, a flagrant violation of libertarianism.

To call this 'libertarianism' is an absolute disgrace. It is socialism couched as freedom.

Look ma! the liberals are trying out a new label.

Correct. What's hilarious is that some so-called 'libertarians' are cheering this on.

[Bono]

It's obvious the person writing that hasn't got a clue about libertarianism other than the tired old stereotypes.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Well of course the libertarian leaning Republicans don't like this.

[MaC]

Well of course the libertarian leaning Republicans don't like this.

What part of liberals don't like the term 'liberal' so they have to reinvent themselves to cope with their mental disorder don't you understand?

First it was 'centrist', then it was 'progressive', and now libertarian dem...

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Well of course the libertarian leaning Republicans don't like this.

What part of liberals don't like the term 'liberal' so they have to reinvent themselves to cope with their mental disorder don't you understand?

First it was 'centrist', then it was 'progressive', and now libertarian dem...

A socialist prick is a socialist prick no matter what they label themselves as.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Another related article. Ignoring the unfavorable headline, the contents of this article aren't too bad.

http://www.reason.com/links/links061606.shtml

Here's one from a Republican leaning Libertarian Webb supporter.
http://www.reason.com/links/links061306.shtml

[MaC]

There are 'civil liberties' Libertarians, ones that are pro-free speech above all else.  To appeal to the left we should try to emphasize matters such as being against war (except for the last resort) and for separation of church and state (at least the extent we can be).  Sorry jfern, I can kinda see where you're goin with this, be you can't expect me to support a 'libertarian' that's against a free market.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

There are 'civil liberties' Libertarians, ones that are pro-free speech above all else.  To appeal to the left we should try to emphasize matters such as being against war (except for the last resort) and for separation of church and state (at least the extent we can be).  Sorry jfern, I can kinda see where you're goin with this, be you can't expect me to support a 'libertarian' that's against a free market.

Well, really it all comes down to who you would have voted in the 1933 election in Germany.

[jokerman]

There are 'civil liberties' Libertarians, ones that are pro-free speech above all else.  To appeal to the left we should try to emphasize matters such as being against war (except for the last resort) and for separation of church and state (at least the extent we can be).  Sorry jfern, I can kinda see where you're goin with this, be you can't expect me to support a 'libertarian' that's against a free market.

M&C, you realize your party's economic beliefs alienate 95% of Americans, in their current form?  If ya'll ever wanted to make some games, ya'll are going to have to make some compromises.  Ya'll can pick up on the libertarian liberals when I sieze control of the Democratic Party in 2032

[MaC]

There are 'civil liberties' Libertarians, ones that are pro-free speech above all else.  To appeal to the left we should try to emphasize matters such as being against war (except for the last resort) and for separation of church and state (at least the extent we can be).  Sorry jfern, I can kinda see where you're goin with this, be you can't expect me to support a 'libertarian' that's against a free market.

M&C, you realize your party's economic beliefs alienate 95% of Americans, in their current form?  If ya'll ever wanted to make some games, ya'll are going to have to make some compromises.  Ya'll can pick up on the libertarian liberals when I sieze control of the Democratic Party in 2032

Bah, free markets have been looking more favorable since the 80s.  Not in the ultra-libertarian sense, but if someone's going in the same direction as I am, who am I to stick out my foot and trip them.

Besides, I'm sure nobody in your party actually agrees 100% with your platform-as a platform is only part of the equation.

Hell, I'd be ecstatic if my party recieved 7% of the vote.

[The Dowager Mod]

Sounds good to me.

Question is, can the "Green"-type democrats and the populist type democrats take an infusion of libertarians into the fold?

EWWWWWWW

[Nym90]

I strongly agree with the idea that freedom from undue corporate influence is just as important, if not more important, than freedom from undue government influence.

Politics is often a debate not about more freedom or less freedom for the population as a whole, but which person's or group of people's freedom is more important or deserving of more attention than another's. It is often more about which freedoms are more important and which less important rather than about the aggregate amount of freedom.

I don't really think it's possible to create freedom for one person or group without reducing it for another. However, I think that liberalism increases freedom for the vast majority of people at the expense of a very few, and even those who have less freedom under this system still see the benefit of greater economic growth.

[bullmoose88]

Sounds good to me.

Question is, can the "Green"-type democrats and the populist type democrats take an infusion of libertarians into the fold?

EWWWWWWW

Aww...whats wrong with us

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

The way to handle populists/far left socialsits is to do mass disenfranchisement. I'm talking about blatant exclusion of groups/people who vote in those 2 catagories.

[Ebowed]

when I sieze control of the Democratic Party in 2032

Ah, the GOP never looked so appealing.