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Author Topic: McGovern to endorse Clark!  (Read 22120 times)
Miamiu1027
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« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2004, 09:40:25 pm »
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Well, you're right, Clinton will be mostly remember for the scandal, not his presidency.
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Carey
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« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2004, 10:42:31 pm »
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Will McGovern's endorsement make a difference? Probably not.

I can imagine a small group of undecideds who voted for McGovern in 72, who may look again in Clark's direction, but that's probably it.

McGovern is considered a joke, even in his own party. It's also hard to have McGovern have much influence in a primary where there are attacks on another candidate (Dean) comparing the two.

As far as I am concerned, this goes in the same level of importane as Dukakis' endorsement of Kerry, and whoever the hell Mondale has endorsed, if anybody.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2004, 10:44:52 pm »
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Mondale and McGovern have no following.  McGovern's endorsement doesn't hurt Clark, it just doesn't do anything.
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Nym90
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« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2004, 01:35:39 am »
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That's my point though, yes Nixon would have won anyway, but Watergate still worked to the extent that McGovern is perceived as a joke to this day still. He wouldn't have been a joke if it hadn't been for Watergate. He still would've lost, but the margin would have been much less and he wouldn't have been portrayed as a wacko peacenik. The man was a World War II fighter pilot, had gotten elected to the Senate from a conservative state (South Dakota), and he was made out to be some commie pinko radical. Yes, he was liberal, but he was also a great war hero and patriot.
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agcatter
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« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2004, 03:23:19 am »
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gotta go with Miamiu on this one.  Shouldn't make much difference one way or the other.  I gotta believe that few people will flock to Clark on the basis of an endorsement of a former nominee who ran 32 years ago.  

On the other hand, Michael Moore's endorsement will probably be a liability in a general election.  His endorsement can't help with swing voters.  it could probably hurt some among that group.  Marginally, but hurting a little.

Of course I figured Harkin's endorsement of Dean in Iowa would be a boost to Dean and that doesn't seem to have been the case.  At least, it doesn't seem that way now so what do I know.
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opebo
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« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2004, 07:36:42 am »
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I think he was the first president to fight for universal health care.  Not sure though.

I think you're right.  Nixon put through a proposal at the beginning of his second term for some type of universal health care.  I don't remember the details, but Congress never passed it.

Nixon also sponsored a welfare reform plan in 1971 called FAP (Family Assistance Program) that would have provided an income floor to all Americans through significantly increased welfare payments.  


Nixon was a Republican of the old school - just a Democrat-lite.  They'd been so rolled over by the left for 30+ years by the time Nixon came around they had no principles or convictions left - people were ashamed of capitalism for gosh sakes!  Nixon grew up politically in the most leftist period America's ever seen.  I'd say the typical Republican of today would have a hard time distinguishing between LBJ and Nixon.  At least he was a little bit hawkish, and Kissinger managed some cool projects like Pinochet in Chile, but on the whole Nixon was no help at all in getting the country where we are today.  Nixon's '72 landslide represented the voters plea for a sharp turn to the right - its just that Nixon betrayed that promise.  We had to wait until 1980 to actually accomplish something.
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« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2004, 12:54:19 pm »
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and Kissinger managed some cool projects like Pinochet in Chile

Pass the bucket, I'm going to be sick...
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Michael Z
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« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2004, 02:54:17 pm »
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Kissinger managed some cool projects like Pinochet in Chile

This is a joke, right? Pinochet was a brutal dictator who killed thousands of people.
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opebo
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« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2004, 02:57:02 pm »
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Kissinger managed some cool projects like Pinochet in Chile

This is a joke, right? Pinochet was a brutal dictator who killed thousands of people.

No, not a joke.  Its true the situation was not ideal, but Kissinger saved that country from socialism.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2004, 03:02:30 pm »
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Kissinger managed some cool projects like Pinochet in Chile

This is a joke, right? Pinochet was a brutal dictator who killed thousands of people.

No, not a joke.  Its true the situation was not ideal, but Kissinger saved that country from socialism.

That is disgusting. The fascist military overthrow a democratic government. People were murdered brutally. Calling that a "cool project" is very disrespectful. I have a friend who's father had to flee from Chile in order to survive. You're turning into PD.
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Michael Z
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« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2004, 03:05:43 pm »
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Kissinger managed some cool projects like Pinochet in Chile

This is a joke, right? Pinochet was a brutal dictator who killed thousands of people.

No, not a joke.  Its true the situation was not ideal, but Kissinger saved that country from socialism.

... by getting lots of people killed. Besides, are you seriously suggesting the Nixon Administration was justified to replace a Socialist regime with an even WORSE one? Two wrongs don't make a right.

Btw, well said Gustaf.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2004, 03:08:18 pm by Michael Zeigermann »Logged
migrendel
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« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2004, 03:08:56 pm »
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Salvador Allende Gossens was a better choice for Chile. He was elected, he guarded copper from foreign abuse, and that curried disfavor with the right-wing at home and in Washington. If what Reagan and Thatcher did at home wasn't enough to cast an aspersion on human dignity, their actions in Nicaraugua and Chile were clearly an example of the winds of evil that swept through Washington and London.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2004, 03:09:24 pm »
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Kissinger managed some cool projects like Pinochet in Chile

This is a joke, right? Pinochet was a brutal dictator who killed thousands of people.

No, not a joke.  Its true the situation was not ideal, but Kissinger saved that country from socialism.

... by getting lots of people killed. Besides, are you seriously suggesting the Nixon Administration was justified to replace a Socialist regime with an even WORSE one? Two wrongs don't make a right.

Btw, well said Gustaf.

Thanks! Smiley
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Gustaf
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« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2004, 03:10:31 pm »
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Salvador Allende Gossens was a better choice for Chile. He was elected, he guarded copper from foreign abuse, and that curried disfavor with the right-wing at home and in Washington. If what Reagan and Thatcher did at home wasn't enough to cast an aspersion on human dignity, their actions in Nicaraugua and Chile were clearly an example of the winds of evil that swept through Washington and London.

I wouldn't say that. I believe Allende was a lousy president, and I am not even convinced that they would have been better off with him. But that's not the point. Democratic principles and human rights are.
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Sibboleth Bist
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« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2004, 03:18:44 pm »
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If "saving" a country from "socialism" is an excuse for setting a coup d'etat that leads to a fascist dictatorship how come the same was never done to Sweden?

Thinking about that, opebo, do you think that the murder of Olof Palme was justified?
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Gustaf
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« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2004, 03:21:07 pm »
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If "saving" a country from "socialism" is an excuse for setting a coup d'etat that leads to a fascist dictatorship how come the same was never done to Sweden?

Thinking about that, opebo, do you think that the murder of Olof Palme was justified?

This will be an interesting answer...Sweden was a western country, though, and we weren't THAT socialist. But it's still a good point. Where do one stop? France would probably be a much better example, they left NATO, courted the SOviets, and tried to nationalize the banks.
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NHPolitico
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« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2004, 09:29:34 am »
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May McGovern do for Clark what Gore and Harkin did for Dean.
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« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2004, 02:50:10 pm »
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McGovern.  And why do the Dems want to remind us of him?  when you can only win MAssachussets int he general election , you should just disappear.  

Well unless you want to give a class on how to lose a election in a big way during a war.
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opebo
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« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2004, 03:03:47 pm »
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If "saving" a country from "socialism" is an excuse for setting a coup d'etat that leads to a fascist dictatorship how come the same was never done to Sweden?

Thinking about that, opebo, do you think that the murder of Olof Palme was justified?

This will be an interesting answer...Sweden was a western country, though, and we weren't THAT socialist. But it's still a good point. Where do one stop? France would probably be a much better example, they left NATO, courted the SOviets, and tried to nationalize the banks.

Gustaf, Realpolitik,

US intervention, as in Chile, should be primarily to benefit US interests, not merely to oppose socialism in principle (though it is in principle an evil, imo).  But as far as within the country itself I don't see how you can blame the Right - and more to the point property owners - from trying to defend themselves against 'democratic' expropriation by whatever means necessary.  In this extremity one is lucky to have a Pinochet to turn to.  The thought that the majority of the 'people' voted to rob you of your property is no comfort at all - you will still fight for it if you can, including by a forcible coup, removing the socialist regime if possible.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2004, 03:37:18 pm »
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If "saving" a country from "socialism" is an excuse for setting a coup d'etat that leads to a fascist dictatorship how come the same was never done to Sweden?

Thinking about that, opebo, do you think that the murder of Olof Palme was justified?

This will be an interesting answer...Sweden was a western country, though, and we weren't THAT socialist. But it's still a good point. Where do one stop? France would probably be a much better example, they left NATO, courted the SOviets, and tried to nationalize the banks.

Gustaf, Realpolitik,

US intervention, as in Chile, should be primarily to benefit US interests, not merely to oppose socialism in principle (though it is in principle an evil, imo).  But as far as within the country itself I don't see how you can blame the Right - and more to the point property owners - from trying to defend themselves against 'democratic' expropriation by whatever means necessary.  In this extremity one is lucky to have a Pinochet to turn to.  The thought that the majority of the 'people' voted to rob you of your property is no comfort at all - you will still fight for it if you can, including by a forcible coup, removing the socialist regime if possible.

I don't think you have the right to invade soverign states to benefit your national interest. That is not a conduct worthy of a democratic country.

If you view fascist murderers as part of the right, then that's your business. I am a right-winger in my own country, and I would punch someone who tried to associate me with Pinochet. I am not saying Allende-s policies were right, I don't think they were, but that was no excuse for murdering left-wingers and imposing a brutal dicatature.
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A18
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« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2005, 09:41:45 pm »
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Kissinger managed some cool projects like Pinochet in Chile

This is a joke, right? Pinochet was a brutal dictator who killed thousands of people.

No, not a joke.  Its true the situation was not ideal, but Kissinger saved that country from socialism.

I completely agree, classic opebo!
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