Is France a left wing country?

[Serenity Now]

Statist: yes

Anti-american: generally, yes.

Paternalist: yes

Protectionist: yes


France is generally a nationalistic country, which includes economic nationalism. Anybody who actually studies political science might know that France is considered a system of "hybrid" system of capitalism which accomodates a large interventionalist state alongside the market. That doesn't make it socialist, even though as I said the state is large and public spending is roughly half of GNP and many utilities are nationalized.

France's welfare state is regarded as "corporatist", it is less accessible than that of social democratic states like Sweden, benefits are means tested but still fairly generous (but not enough so that those on them aren't poor) and the system is more favourable to families and married couples. France love their "family values" and are trying to rapidly expand their birth rate.

Finally what is strange about France is that they aspire still to assert themselves as a world power, clinging onto tiny colonies like an empire and still maintaining a large military and the fourth largest nuclear "deterrent".. (Britain do it too but through bounding with the US, not alone) It's more funny than anything.

Then again I'm not anti-French, the quality of life of the average French person is probably better than that of the average British person.

[Ben.]

No it has, at least since the war, been statist.

That's about right... it's dominated by a "Gaulist consensus" nationalist, federalist and with a strong and expansive state that contains a strong and powerful trade union lobby, it's social model is statist rather than left-wing but it's industrial relations laws are straight out of the extreem leftwing.   

[Filuwaúrdjan]

a strong and powerful trade union lobby,

That's a myth; French Unions are (by any conventional method of working this out) some of the weakest in the E.U. I think a lower % of the French workforce is unionised than the U.S workforce (that was certainly the case a few years ago).

[WMS]

However, that in itself is not to say that neo-conservatism is a left-wing ideology per se, because it doesn't account for their obsession with things like gay marriage or creationism, not to mention their aim to discredit or marginalise the liberal movement (which is the reason neo-conservatism came to being in the first place - it was basically a reaction against liberalism, from people like Strauss and Kristol).

Those are hallmarks of the domestic policy ideology of conservatism, not the foreign policy ideology of neoconservatism. Given that none of the avowed neoconservatives on this board are obsessed with gay marriage or creationism, shouldn't you stop claiming that every single thing George W. Bush believes is a neoconservative trait? You are seriously warping what neoconservatism is, every bit as badly as what liberalism is.

[minionofmidas]

Finally what is strange about France is that they aspire still to assert themselves as a world power, clinging onto tiny colonies like an empire and still maintaining a large military and the fourth largest nuclear "deterrent".. (Britain do it too but through bounding with the US, not alone) It's more funny than anything.

Quite frankly, the Brits are a good bit more ridiculous about that than the French. Certainly, ordinary everyday Brits are a hell of a lot more touched by the idea behind it than ordinary everyday French ... the difference is far less palpable between the political castes.

Oh, and France's overseas bits and pieces are represented - in fact, overrepresented - in Parliament.

[Gustaf]

However, that in itself is not to say that neo-conservatism is a left-wing ideology per se, because it doesn't account for their obsession with things like gay marriage or creationism, not to mention their aim to discredit or marginalise the liberal movement (which is the reason neo-conservatism came to being in the first place - it was basically a reaction against liberalism, from people like Strauss and Kristol).

Those are hallmarks of the domestic policy ideology of conservatism, not the foreign policy ideology of neoconservatism. Given that none of the avowed neoconservatives on this board are obsessed with gay marriage or creationism, shouldn't you stop claiming that every single thing George W. Bush believes is a neoconservative trait? You are seriously warping what neoconservatism is, every bit as badly as what liberalism is.

Neoconservatism is basically disinterested in such social issues (they're hawkish on crime though), but American neoconservatives have felt obliged to pander to the Religious Right in order to get support for their own ideas. But it's fairly obvious that the kind of paleoconservatives who are typically socially conservative are their exact opposites.

[WMS]

However, that in itself is not to say that neo-conservatism is a left-wing ideology per se, because it doesn't account for their obsession with things like gay marriage or creationism, not to mention their aim to discredit or marginalise the liberal movement (which is the reason neo-conservatism came to being in the first place - it was basically a reaction against liberalism, from people like Strauss and Kristol).

Those are hallmarks of the domestic policy ideology of conservatism, not the foreign policy ideology of neoconservatism. Given that none of the avowed neoconservatives on this board are obsessed with gay marriage or creationism, shouldn't you stop claiming that every single thing George W. Bush believes is a neoconservative trait? You are seriously warping what neoconservatism is, every bit as badly as what liberalism is.

Neoconservatism is basically disinterested in such social issues (they're hawkish on crime though), but American neoconservatives have felt obliged to pander to the Religious Right in order to get support for their own ideas. But it's fairly obvious that the kind of paleoconservatives who are typically socially conservative are their exact opposites.

Indeed, Gus.

I think the problem is that the left-liberal elements of the media have slapped the label 'neoconservative' to describe anything Bush & Co. believes in and does, regardless of whether it has anything to do with neoconservatism or not. This is similar to how the right-conservative elements of the media have slapped the label 'liberal' on anything the Dems believe in and do, regardless of what it happens to be.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Even I'll admit that, and I have gotten rather annoyed explaining how religious crazies/Falwell/Robertson types are not neocons.

Of course on DU the term neocon is typically just used a perjorative slur to slap on anything they don't like. But I'm a bit of a stickler for accuracy, even when we're contrasting two complete piles of crap (which is what religious fundamentalism and neoconservatism are)

[WMS]

Even I'll admit that, and I have gotten rather annoyed explaining how religious crazies/Falwell/Robertson types are not neocons.

Of course on DU the term neocon is typically just used a perjorative slur to slap on anything they don't like. But I'm a bit of a stickler for accuracy, even when we're contrasting two complete piles of crap (which is what religious fundamentalism and neoconservatism are)

and
Come now, BRTD, you know enough neocons on this board to know better than that last sentence of yours.

[Bono]

Even I'll admit that, and I have gotten rather annoyed explaining how religious crazies/Falwell/Robertson types are not neocons.

Of course on DU the term neocon is typically just used a perjorative slur to slap on anything they don't like. But I'm a bit of a stickler for accuracy, even when we're contrasting two complete piles of crap (which is what religious fundamentalism and neoconservatism are)

and
Come now, BRTD, you know enough neocons on this board to know better than that last sentence of yours.

No, he's totally right.
Neoconservatism takes what's worst about populism, social-democracy and populism, and mixes it together to achieve something even worse.

[Michael Z]

However, that in itself is not to say that neo-conservatism is a left-wing ideology per se, because it doesn't account for their obsession with things like gay marriage or creationism, not to mention their aim to discredit or marginalise the liberal movement (which is the reason neo-conservatism came to being in the first place - it was basically a reaction against liberalism, from people like Strauss and Kristol).

Those are hallmarks of the domestic policy ideology of conservatism, not the foreign policy ideology of neoconservatism. Given that none of the avowed neoconservatives on this board are obsessed with gay marriage or creationism, shouldn't you stop claiming that every single thing George W. Bush believes is a neoconservative trait? You are seriously warping what neoconservatism is, every bit as badly as what liberalism is.

Neoconservatism is basically disinterested in such social issues (they're hawkish on crime though), but American neoconservatives have felt obliged to pander to the Religious Right in order to get support for their own ideas. But it's fairly obvious that the kind of paleoconservatives who are typically socially conservative are their exact opposites.

Indeed, Gus.

I think the problem is that the left-liberal elements of the media have slapped the label 'neoconservative' to describe anything Bush & Co. believes in and does, regardless of whether it has anything to do with neoconservatism or not. This is similar to how the right-conservative elements of the media have slapped the label 'liberal' on anything the Dems believe in and do, regardless of what it happens to be.

Granted, I wouldn't go as far as saying that neocons and paleoconservatives are the same kettle of fish; perhaps an unholy alliance of sorts.

I think it's also telling that quite a few neocons (Wolfowitz, et al) are atheists, though they also understand the role religion can play as a populist tool (which brings me back to its correlation with Marxism, it's just that neoconservatism, as opposed to Marxism, wants to reinforce "Bourgeois agents" - and needless to say, I'm paraphrasing once more), which means they are perfectly happy to play to the Evangelical vote.

That said, either way, it's clear that the GOP has currently been hijacked by two separate fringe groups, and it's only a matter of time before the moderates either try to reclaim that mainstream of the party, or even defect to the Democrats (a scenario which wouldn't be all that far off if the Republicans experience the widely expected meltdown at the November elections).

[Bono]

However, that in itself is not to say that neo-conservatism is a left-wing ideology per se, because it doesn't account for their obsession with things like gay marriage or creationism, not to mention their aim to discredit or marginalise the liberal movement (which is the reason neo-conservatism came to being in the first place - it was basically a reaction against liberalism, from people like Strauss and Kristol).

Those are hallmarks of the domestic policy ideology of conservatism, not the foreign policy ideology of neoconservatism. Given that none of the avowed neoconservatives on this board are obsessed with gay marriage or creationism, shouldn't you stop claiming that every single thing George W. Bush believes is a neoconservative trait? You are seriously warping what neoconservatism is, every bit as badly as what liberalism is.

Neoconservatism is basically disinterested in such social issues (they're hawkish on crime though), but American neoconservatives have felt obliged to pander to the Religious Right in order to get support for their own ideas. But it's fairly obvious that the kind of paleoconservatives who are typically socially conservative are their exact opposites.

Indeed, Gus.

I think the problem is that the left-liberal elements of the media have slapped the label 'neoconservative' to describe anything Bush & Co. believes in and does, regardless of whether it has anything to do with neoconservatism or not. This is similar to how the right-conservative elements of the media have slapped the label 'liberal' on anything the Dems believe in and do, regardless of what it happens to be.

Granted, I wouldn't go as far as saying that neocons and paleoconservatives are the same kettle of fish; perhaps an unholy alliance of sorts.

I think it's also telling that quite a few neocons (Wolfowitz, et al) are atheists, though they also understand the role religion can play as a populist tool (which brings me back to its correlation with Marxism, it's just that neoconservatism, as opposed to Marxism, wants to reinforce "Bourgeois agents" - and needless to say, I'm paraphrasing once more), which means they are perfectly happy to play to the Evangelical vote.

That said, either way, it's clear that the GOP has currently been hijacked by two separate fringe groups, and it's only a matter of time before the moderates either try to reclaim that mainstream of the party, or even defect to the Democrats (a scenario which wouldn't be all that far off if the Republicans experience the widely expected meltdown at the November elections).

What?
Neocons and paleo-cons hate each other. There is no sort of "alliance", if not because paleo-cons have been nearly banished from influential positions in the republican party.

[Jens]

a strong and powerful trade union lobby,

That's a myth; French Unions are (by any conventional method of working this out) some of the weakest in the E.U. I think a lower % of the French workforce is unionised than the U.S workforce (that was certainly the case a few years ago).

You are right. France has a very weak union structure in terms of % of the working population (unlike the Nordic countries that unionise more that 80 %) but what France has is some small very militant unions like the CGT that likes to block the traffic once in a while, but that is also the hobby of the French farmers

The largest French union CFDT has 900.000 members in a country with 55 m inhabitants. The largest Danish union 3F has 400.000 members in a country with 5.5 m inhabitants. That is not what I would call a strong union (the French that is. 3F is quite powerfull )

[Bacon King]

I don't know if, in the entire spectrum of things, you could consider France a left-wing country, but while i was in Paris, I noticed in the suburb of Malakoff there was a 'Lenin Stadium' locaded on 'Boulevard du Stalingrad'. I doubt you could ever name things after communists in the states.

[WMS]

However, that in itself is not to say that neo-conservatism is a left-wing ideology per se, because it doesn't account for their obsession with things like gay marriage or creationism, not to mention their aim to discredit or marginalise the liberal movement (which is the reason neo-conservatism came to being in the first place - it was basically a reaction against liberalism, from people like Strauss and Kristol).

Those are hallmarks of the domestic policy ideology of conservatism, not the foreign policy ideology of neoconservatism. Given that none of the avowed neoconservatives on this board are obsessed with gay marriage or creationism, shouldn't you stop claiming that every single thing George W. Bush believes is a neoconservative trait? You are seriously warping what neoconservatism is, every bit as badly as what liberalism is.

Neoconservatism is basically disinterested in such social issues (they're hawkish on crime though), but American neoconservatives have felt obliged to pander to the Religious Right in order to get support for their own ideas. But it's fairly obvious that the kind of paleoconservatives who are typically socially conservative are their exact opposites.

Indeed, Gus.

I think the problem is that the left-liberal elements of the media have slapped the label 'neoconservative' to describe anything Bush & Co. believes in and does, regardless of whether it has anything to do with neoconservatism or not. This is similar to how the right-conservative elements of the media have slapped the label 'liberal' on anything the Dems believe in and do, regardless of what it happens to be.

Granted, I wouldn't go as far as saying that neocons and paleoconservatives are the same kettle of fish; perhaps an unholy alliance of sorts.

I think it's also telling that quite a few neocons (Wolfowitz, et al) are atheists, though they also understand the role religion can play as a populist tool (which brings me back to its correlation with Marxism, it's just that neoconservatism, as opposed to Marxism, wants to reinforce "Bourgeois agents" - and needless to say, I'm paraphrasing once more), which means they are perfectly happy to play to the Evangelical vote.

That said, either way, it's clear that the GOP has currently been hijacked by two separate fringe groups, and it's only a matter of time before the moderates either try to reclaim that mainstream of the party, or even defect to the Democrats (a scenario which wouldn't be all that far off if the Republicans experience the widely expected meltdown at the November elections).

*shiver* Don't remind me

Bono has a point about the mutual antipathy between the two groups, albeit we'd pick different sides to support

I would venture that quite a few religious folks are neocons on some level and "Evangelical" is another term seriously warped by the left-liberal elements of the media (and one I have spent damn near my entire time on the forum trying to correct *grr* ) since Evangelical <> Conservative, so the picture is more complicated that certain, shall we say, BBC-esque journalists and academics like to portray.

There are more factions within the Reps that just those, I'd say...the econ cons are the ones who really run things IMHO.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Along w/ most of Europe, France is pretty much a left-wing country.

[Jens]

Along w/ most of Europe, France is pretty much a left-wing country.

I think that you would be surpriced of the diversity there is in Europe and as nomerous other posters has said, do not think that dislike towards American foreign politics is the same as being left-wing

[Bono]

Along w/ most of Europe, France is pretty much a left-wing country.

I think that you would be surpriced of the diversity there is in Europe and as nomerous other posters has said, do not think that dislike towards American foreign politics is the same as being left-wing

Also do not buy the myth that the center of the political spectrum is more to the left in europe than the US.
It's total bullsh**t, and there are quite a number of european parties that are far to the right of the republicans.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I don't know if, in the entire spectrum of things, you could consider France a left-wing country, but while i was in Paris, I noticed in the suburb of Malakoff there was a 'Lenin Stadium' locaded on 'Boulevard du Stalingrad'. I doubt you could ever name things after communists in the states.

Malakoff is part of a constituency (sorry; can't spell the French for that without looking it up. Circumspection?) currently held by the PCF (old fashioned Commies) and has, IIRC, been that way for some time; judging by that it's very likely that the local Mayor is a Commie, and local authorities, world over, have a habit of naming things to reflect their ideology; in the U.K there are many streets and council estates named after former Labour leaders for example (ie; Keir Hardie Way in Sunderland, or the Clem Attlee estate in West London). I wouldn't have thought that the national Government would have named anything after Soviet leaders.

It's important to remember that French politics is both polarised and fragmented in ways not really imaginable (well, almost) to people in the U.S; while the PCF has Deputies (ie; M.P's/Representatives), Mayors etc (and actually runs two whole Departments) and various Trot parties can poll good numbers in Presidential elections, Le Pen came second in the 2002 Presidential elections, polled over 5 million votes and came first place (in the first round) in countless regions, departments and municipalities. Other far-right politicians have/could poll well as well.

[Maastricht]

I don't know if, in the entire spectrum of things, you could consider France a left-wing country, but while i was in Paris, I noticed in the suburb of Malakoff there was a 'Lenin Stadium' locaded on 'Boulevard du Stalingrad'. I doubt you could ever name things after communists in the states.

There are still lots of street or places named after communist leaders or celebrities (Trotski, Gagarine, Lenine) or after french communist or socialist leaders (Jean Jaurès, Paul Vaillant Couturier ...). But it is really specific to cities which had - or still have - communist mayor. It is quite usual in Paris suburbs or in Lille's area. Malakoff was one of them (there was a strong presence of the CGT due to numerous factories ... Most of them closed since, but names stayed).