Anthem or 1984

[MaC]

Please don't vote in the poll unless you've read both.



Of course, possible spoilers below:






1984, about an alternate ending to World War II.  Rather than the 'cold war' that really happened, 1984 refers to the story of three macro-countries.  Originally titled 'The Last Man in Europe' the story is about Winston who opposes the government, but has absolutely no way he can express his ideas. 



Anthem, a story about a man Equality 7-2521 who has been just given his job at the Council of Vocations as a street sweeper, one day he finds a tunnel that Equality's superiors don't know about.  It becomes his secret place and he starts to make discoveries on his own accord...

[Inks.LWC Supports Chuck Hagel]

I read 1984 and loved it.  I'll have to read Anthem.  It looks interesting.

[Grad Students are the Worst]

Orwell took Rand's idea and made it less preachy, more human, and a lot scarier.  My vote goes to Nineteen Eighty-Four.

[opebo]

1984 was better because Eric Blair was a very good writer.  Rand wrote some interesting things, but overall was not a very good writer.  They were really in different leagues as it were.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

The socialist wrote the better warning of a book.

[frenger]

The socialist wrote the better warning of a book.

Actually, he was a left-libertarian.

[jokerman]

The socialist wrote the better warning of a book.

Actually, he was a left-libertarian.

Right.  Why would a socialist write Animal Farm?

[Akno21]

The socialist wrote the better warning of a book.

Actually, he was a left-libertarian.

Right.  Why would a socialist write Animal Farm?

He was a socialist, not a communist. Animal Farm was written in opposition to Soviet-style communism and totalitarianism, not as some broad manifesto in favor of complete economic freedom. In fact, in 1946, he said "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." This was from his essay "Why I Write".

Source: http://www.netcharles.com/orwell/essays/whyiwrite.htm

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

The socialist wrote the better warning of a book.

Actually, he was a left-libertarian.

No, he was a socialist.

[MaC]

1984 was better because Eric Blair was a very good writer.  Rand wrote some interesting things, but overall was not a very good writer.  They were really in different leagues as it were.

Who's Eric Blair?  George Orwell wrote 1984.  And I'll agree 1984 was a lot more embelished, although I think one of the points of Anthem was that it was supposed to be a barebones book.

The socialist wrote the better warning of a book.

Actually, he was a left-libertarian.

No, he was a socialist.

Which brings me to another point.  Orwell was a self-proclaimed 'socialist' but then why did he write books denouncing big government under a socialist system like 1984?  Yes, keeping in mind I realize the fine line between a 'democratic socialism' and a 'communism' (they're still in the same direction, though)

[jokerman]

1984 was better because Eric Blair was a very good writer.  Rand wrote some interesting things, but overall was not a very good writer.  They were really in different leagues as it were.

Who's Eric Blair?  George Orwell wrote 1984.  And I'll agree 1984 was a lot more embelished, although I think one of the points of Anthem was that it was supposed to be a barebones book.

Eric Blair is "George Orwell's" real name.

[MaC]

ah, my bad

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

1984 was better because Eric Blair was a very good writer.  Rand wrote some interesting things, but overall was not a very good writer.  They were really in different leagues as it were.

Who's Eric Blair?  George Orwell wrote 1984.  And I'll agree 1984 was a lot more embelished, although I think one of the points of Anthem was that it was supposed to be a barebones book.

The socialist wrote the better warning of a book.

Actually, he was a left-libertarian.

No, he was a socialist.

Which brings me to another point.  Orwell was a self-proclaimed 'socialist' but then why did he write books denouncing big government under a socialist system like 1984?  Yes, keeping in mind I realize the fine line between a 'democratic socialism' and a 'communism' (they're still in the same direction, though)

WTF?

[opebo]

Which brings me to another point.  Orwell was a self-proclaimed 'socialist' but then why did he write books denouncing big government under a socialist system like 1984?  Yes, keeping in mind I realize the fine line between a 'democratic socialism' and a 'communism' (they're still in the same direction, though)

Orwell didn't criticize 'big government' per se, and 1984 was as much fascist as socialist.  He was honest enough to see the dangers in both sides of the political spectrum.  But I'm quite sure he would not seen capitalism as in any way 'free'.  I'll go out on a limb, given my limited knowledge, and say that he advocated a moderate, democratic socialism.. even Fabian, though I don't think he actually allied himself with that group.

[frenger]

The socialist wrote the better warning of a book.

Actually, he was a left-libertarian.

No, he was a socialist.

He was a left-libertarian. he fought with the anarchists in the spanish civil war.
Socialism defends state control of economic activity in a centralized bureocratic administration. He and left-libertarians/anarcho-socialists defend(ed) worker control of economic activities in a decentralized, democratic fashion.

[Sibboleth]

1984 o/c; not his best work (that would, probably, be The Lion and the Unicorn) but still very good, if often misunderstood.

About Orwell's political views; he most certainly was a Socialist, at least in the way the word and ideology have been thought of over here. He certainly thought of himself as one.
And while he did have certain small "l" libertarian leanings, he actually had a few other leanings in the opposite direction. He was also quite socially conservative in certain respects.

[J. J.]

I've never read 1984 in full, but it has to be better than Anthem.

[Sibboleth]

1984, about an alternate ending to World War II.

No it isn't. Not really.

the story is about Winston who opposes the government, but has absolutely no way he can express his ideas.

That's not what it's about at all. Not really.

[Sibboleth]

Right.  Why would a socialist write Animal Farm?

Have you ever actually read Animal Farm? It is not an anti-Socialist tract at all. Anti-communist, yes (it's not just anti-Stalin; Trotsky isn't presented in a good light either), but it is certainly possible to be a Socialist and to be opposed to Marxist-Leninism.
Note that the original dream, the thing that motivated the Revolution in the first place, is not presented as a bad thing. And also note that the Humans are not exactly heroes either... you must have read the final few lines?

Who's Eric Blair?  George Orwell wrote 1984

Eric Arthur Blair was the real name of George Orwell. The Orwell is a river in Suffolk (flows through Ipswich).

Orwell was a self-proclaimed 'socialist' but then why did he write books denouncing big government under a socialist system like 1984?

He didn't. The regime in 1984 was not Socialist; it did not have an ideology as such. The point of it was power for power's sake; this is made very clear towards the end of the book.
An aspect of it that tends to be ignored is quite how hiarchical society is in it; and that the famous set up of cameras-in-every-house, secret-police-watching-every-move and so on, only applied to one of the three classes, which happend to be the one Winston Smith belonged to. The "proles", the majority of the population, were kept in check, basically, by dumbed-down popular culture.

  Yes, keeping in mind I realize the fine line between a 'democratic socialism' and a 'communism'

I think you'll find more than just a fine line seperates the two. Unless you think that (for example) the NHS is similer to a Gulag...

(they're still in the same direction, though)

No, not at all.

[frenger]

1984 o/c; not his best work (that would, probably, be The Lion and the Unicorn) but still very good, if often misunderstood.

About Orwell's political views; he most certainly was a Socialist, at least in the way the word and ideology have been thought of over here. He certainly thought of himself as one.
And while he did have certain small "l" libertarian leanings, he actually had a few other leanings in the opposite direction. He was also quite socially conservative in certain respects.

I don't mean he was a libertarian. I mean he was a left-libertarian, which is completely different from libertarian. Haven't you ever heard of libertarian socialism? Maybe that would descrive him.

[© Tweed the Younger]

Which brings me to another point.  Orwell was a self-proclaimed 'socialist' but then why did he write books denouncing big government under a socialist system like 1984?  Yes, keeping in mind I realize the fine line between a 'democratic socialism' and a 'communism' (they're still in the same direction, though)

Orwell was opposed to Stalinist rule that created a bureaucracy and betrayed the principles of the revolution.  He held no real contempt for Marx or Lenin, rather, Trotsky and mostly Stalin.

[MaC]

1984, about an alternate ending to World War II.

No it isn't. Not really.

the story is about Winston who opposes the government, but has absolutely no way he can express his ideas.

That's not what it's about at all. Not really.

sigh, I'm trying to describe the beginning of the book and not to give much away.

[Sibboleth]

I don't mean he was a libertarian. I mean he was a left-libertarian, which is completely different from libertarian. Haven't you ever heard of libertarian socialism? Maybe that would descrive him.

Part of the problem with putting labels on people is that the labels mean different things in different places

Yes, he certainly did have some libertarian socialist leanings.

[frenger]

I don't mean he was a libertarian. I mean he was a left-libertarian, which is completely different from libertarian. Haven't you ever heard of libertarian socialism? Maybe that would descrive him.

Part of the problem with putting labels on people is that the labels mean different things in different places

Yes, he certainly did have some libertarian socialist leanings.

Basically what I mean is: he was closer to Bakunin than to Marx.

[jokerman]

Anarcho-Socialism (or described by some as Anarcho-Syndacalism).  Yes, I know what you mean exactly, Bono.

On what matters was he socially conservative, Al?