Founding Fathers of Israel were Terrorists

[Michael Z]

Many "founding fathers" were probably terrorists- It all depends on your definition is terrorist; after all, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Take the founding fathers of the US - generally regarded as great men, and I'm sure most of us agree. But, had history gone differently and the British kept control of the North American colonies, chances are they'd now be seen as rogues and terrorists who tried to upset the status quo comparable to Guy Fawkes and the like.

In any case, I don't see how this thread can add anything constructive to the Israel/Palestine debate. In fact, I think both sides have had more than enough finger pointing and name calling.

[Tory]

hahaha . . . CryBaby continues to show his anti-Semitic brain cell once again.  Just imagine if he had two to rub together.  Imagine what other illogical arguments he could come up with.

Isnt it funny how whenever someone says something against Israel he/she is immidiately labeled as an anti-semitic? And anyone that disagree's with America is immediately labeled a terrorist? Yet its okay to rip Muslims apart all you want.

Muslims get ripped apart because they deserve it. Israel and the US get ripped apart because the people who do the ripping are morons.

Why exactly do muslims deserve it? Thats got to be one of the stupidest things ive heard in a while!

For being complete fascists. They make evangelical Christians look like open minded hippies. Their propaganda machine has 80% of the world fooled into believing the US is the greatest source of evil on earth, and the moderates within Islam don't account for sh**t because they let the fundamentalists run everything.

Clearly you know nothing about Islam, the religion or the people, so why dont you do us all a favour and keep your racist uninformed remarks to yourself, maybe that way you wont sound like a complete idiot all the time.. just a suggestion.

Clearly you don't(and I'm assuming you are one, so that's pretty sad). They aren't racist remarks because Islam isn't a race genius, and guess what? I just moved from a neighbourhood that was about 80% Muslim, and my brother is a convert to Islam, which completely f**cked him up. You should talk to my gay cousin about how friendly the Muslims in his neighbourhood are.

[ag]

hahaha . . . CryBaby continues to show his anti-Semitic brain cell once again.  Just imagine if he had two to rub together.  Imagine what other illogical arguments he could come up with.

Isnt it funny how whenever someone says something against Israel he/she is immidiately labeled as an anti-semitic? And anyone that disagree's with America is immediately labeled a terrorist? Yet its okay to rip Muslims apart all you want.

Muslims get ripped apart because they deserve it. Israel and the US get ripped apart because the people who do the ripping are morons.

Why exactly do muslims deserve it? Thats got to be one of the stupidest things ive heard in a while!

For being complete fascists. They make evangelical Christians look like open minded hippies. Their propaganda machine has 80% of the world fooled into believing the US is the greatest source of evil on earth, and the moderates within Islam don't account for sh**t because they let the fundamentalists run everything.

Clearly you know nothing about Islam, the religion or the people, so why dont you do us all a favour and keep your racist uninformed remarks to yourself, maybe that way you wont sound like a complete idiot all the time.. just a suggestion.

Clearly you don't(and I'm assuming you are one, so that's pretty sad). They aren't racist remarks because Islam isn't a race genius, and guess what? I just moved from a neighbourhood that was about 80% Muslim, and my brother is a convert to Islam, which completely f**cked him up. You should talk to my gay cousin about how friendly the Muslims in his neighbourhood are.

Have you ever dealt with the ultra-orthodox Jews? They are pretty much indistinguishable from their Muslim analogs. You know, a good Jew should not ever pass between two women or two asses (or between a woman and an ass) since asses anb women don't study Torah.  A man (or a woman), whose ancestor was born out of a valid Jewish marriage remains a bastard, even if that unfortunate occurance happened 300 years ago or more (there are known families that have carried the bastard status for over a thousand years). Since a bastard can't get married, any children s/he might have are bastards too.  By the way, "bastard" is a legal term in Israel. Israeli religious affairs ministry maintains a list of bastards, to make sure these people can't get married in Israel (Israel has no civil marriage, only religious).  It is not that orthodox Judaism is any different from Islam or Christianity in its treatment of gays either - remeber what God did to Sodom? Religious Jews take it very seriously.

As for being "f.cked up", I've seen so many smart Jewish kids, who've "Found G-d" and turned completely screwed up, were completely lost both to their families (it is really impossible to talk to them) and to every sort of productive activity, other than making multitudes of ragged children and studying "The Book", that I know well not to extend Islam the honor of having a monopoly on driviing people nuts. Frankly, among those I know personally, Muslims are, on average, more modern and civilized then my fellow Jewish tribesmen.  At least, Islam is not a tribal religion, and does not involve dreams of racial superiority.

Everything you have to say about Muslims can be with equal justice repeated about Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Communists, Shintoists and pretty much anybody else. I am sorry for your brother, but had he converted to anything else, you'd find him equally impossible to deal with.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Have you ever dealt with the ultra-orthodox Jews? They are pretty much indistinguishable from their Muslim analogs.

Well that's true in terms of ridiculous practices (like what you mentioned). But not in terms of comitting terrorism. Of course there was the Kach, JDL and all the early Zionist terrorists mentioned here, but they were more of a secular nationalist stripe, they were killing people in the name of G-d.  No one really thought of the anti-Turkish Armenian terrorists in the 60s and 70s of being "Christian terrorists" and they're comparable.

By the way, "bastard" is a legal term in Israel. Israeli religious affairs ministry maintains a list of bastards, to make sure these people can't get married in Israel (Israel has no civil marriage, only religious).

Now that's interesting. Since they'd have to recognize Muslim and Christian marriages too I'd assume, wouldn't it be possible for one of these "bastards" to just get married under some ultra-liberal Reform sect which presumably would have no such problem?

I am sorry for your brother, but had he converted to anything else, you'd find him equally impossible to deal with.

Well not neccesarily. Converts do usually tend to be rather nuts, but there are certainly exceptions, hell even my own mom is an example, Catholic to Lutheran convert and not extreme in any way.

[ag]

Have you ever dealt with the ultra-orthodox Jews? They are pretty much indistinguishable from their Muslim analogs.

Well that's true in terms of ridiculous practices (like what you mentioned). But not in terms of comitting terrorism. Of course there was the Kach, JDL and all the early Zionist terrorists mentioned here, but they were more of a secular nationalist stripe, they were killing people in the name of G-d.  No one really thought of the anti-Turkish Armenian terrorists in the 60s and 70s of being "Christian terrorists" and they're comparable.

a) well, Palestinian terrorists have not all been Islamists as well. In fact, Islamists were not a major force, say, back in the 1970s - most of the terrorist groups were sociallist and, at most, ambiguous about religion. Arafat and his Fatah never really had anything to do with Islamism - not much to do with Islam, for that matter. Arafat himself was, at most, a nominal Muslim - I am not sure he wasn't, privately, an atheist or an agnostic (of course, he wouldn't want to say this in public in his later years). The surge of religious component in the Palestinian movement is a very recent thing. If you go back a generation it is all the non-religious nationalist and socialist terrorism perpetrated by nominal Muslims. 

b) actually, modern age of political terrorism was, probably, started by Hindu Tamils in Sri Lanka. Their movement is jointly nationalist and religious, so what would you say about that?

c) though this is not very relevant, it is still of interest that going further back in history, many, if not most, of the sociallist terrorists in Russia in the early 20th century were born Jewish. The most important terrorist organization in the early 1900s in Russia (if not in the world) was the Fighting Organization of the Sociallist Revolutionary Party. During its history, it had two heads - it was founded by Grigoriy Gershuni and, after his arrest, led by Yevno Azef (the latter one later turned out to be a paid police agent). Both were Jewish - of course, they didn't really care about their Jewishness.

[ag]

By the way, "bastard" is a legal term in Israel. Israeli religious affairs ministry maintains a list of bastards, to make sure these people can't get married in Israel (Israel has no civil marriage, only religious).

Now that's interesting. Since they'd have to recognize Muslim and Christian marriages too I'd assume, wouldn't it be possible for one of these "bastards" to just get married under some ultra-liberal Reform sect which presumably would have no such problem?

I am not sure about the impact of the latest court decisions in Israel, but, at least up until now, such marriage would not be recognized.

The issue of Reform and Conservative conversion and marriage is a very difficult issue in Israel. While in recent months there's been some change, up until now the only Judaism recognized in Israel has been Orthodox. "Who is a Jew" has always been decided by the Rabbinate, and that is wholy controlled by the Orthodox rabbis. Just last week Israeli President Katsav has publically refused to address a Reform rabbi as such (after some pressure, he, apparently, agreed to address Conservative rabbis as rabbis though). The only conversion that matters for the purposes of obtaining Israeli citizenship is Orthodox conversion. The only marriage that is valid is an Orthodox marriage.

There are very few Reform and/or Conservative sinagogues in Israel, in any case - these are viewed as a German (Conservative) or American (Reform) perversion.  Even secular Israelis would say that "the sinagogue we don't go to is Orthodox". While most parishioners of non-Orthodox sinagogues are, of course, easily recognized as Jewish by everyone, their rituals are not, broadly, viewed as fully valid. A marriage performed by a Reform rabbi in contravention of the Rabbinate's determination would be null and void.

In recent years, there have been court decisions requiring giving greater recognition to Reform and Conservative sinagogues and rabbis. However, the government does its best to avoid compliance. Thus, after the Supreme Court ruled that those who convert in a non-Orthodox sinagogue must be recognized
as Jewish on their government ID, the government simply eliminated the religious affiliation from the ID  for all (while I find the outcome very satisfactory, the motivation smacked of a contempt of court).

Thus, there is no issue of non-Orthodox Jewish marriage in Israel - it is simply not recognized. In principle these people could convert to Christianity or Islam, and then get married in a church or in a mosque, but since non-Jews face heavy discrimination in their daily life (I am not even talking of the "terason" aspect of it), this is not a common strategy. Mercifully, there is a deliberate loophole: Israel does recognize foreign marriage, whether religious or civil. So, those unable to get married in Israel (either the bastards, or, mostly, the interfaith couples) simply travel to Cyprus and tie the knot there, after which they return to Israel as legally married couples. It is not cheap, and a lot of the poorer people have trouble affording it, but it is a feasible strategy (my wife's cousin had to do this, though she travelled back to the country of her husband's birth - she was Jewish, he was only half-Jewish on his father's side, which made him Jewish enough to get the Israeli citizenship or to serve in the military, but not Jewish-enough to get married - or to be burried in a military cemetery if, god forbid, he were to be killed in action). Of course, there are further complications involved if they ever have to undergo a divorce - Israel does not have civil family law.

[Global Crier]

The video documentation of the Israel assault on the Palestinian society is very well documented. Many people on the so-called “left” are fully aware of the real reality on the ground in the Palestinian-Israeli crisis. By the time the mainstream American media reports on the Palestine-Israel crisis it has been filtered and sanitized making the Israelis the victims and the Arabs-Palestinians the terrorists. The Israeli-American Jewish right-wingers have muffled the voices of the Jewish lefties who are some of the most out spoken people against the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian Territory.

The Israeli government denies any accountability for the horrific conditions they have imposed onto the Palestinian people. The American people are financially supporting the Israeli assault on the Palestinian society. The Israelis could not get away with the murder and destruction of the Palestinian society without American’s support. For many years the international community of nations has given aid to the Palestinian society. The Israeli have destroyed many of these projects. With one of the latest being the bombing of Gaza only power plant that was built with Sweden assistance.

The State of Israel has refused to comply with international laws and United Nation Resolutions concerning the Palestinian-Israeli crisis. The wretched living condition that the Palestinian people are living in day-to-day are created by the policies and actions of the Israeli government are crimes against humanity. The Israeli right-wingers do not even recognize the fact that the Palestinian people ever had a homeland so there for there are no crimes. 

Most of the lands of the Jewish settlements that are surrounded by Green Space in many cases were the homes, farms and villages of the Palestinian people. The Israelis have destroyed more Palestinian homes and lives in their quest for the Greater State of Israel. The Israeli government continues build a wall that the Israeli right-winger call a fence on Palestinian land. As well as “Jewish Only By-Pass Roads” that slices and dices the West Bank into Bantam state of the Palestinian people. The United States financing of the on going process of destruction thousands of acres of Palestinian land and human lives is considered progress by the Israeli right-wingers.