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Nym90
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« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2006, 01:13:27 am »
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To me, gay rights equate to people being treated as of equal worth regardless of their sexuality. In other words, to be treated as a human being, not as someone who is gay, straight, or whatever. That's a concept I strongly believe in.
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« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2006, 02:36:46 am »
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Many homosexuals in the United States (I will not comment about those in other lands) are interested in gaining access to minor children

Replace the word 'many' with 'some' and the word 'homosexual' with 'paedophile' - why you refuse to make that distinction is beyond me
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« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2006, 10:55:36 am »
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First, are so-called 'gay rights' merely limited to 'gay marriage'?  The answer to this is clearly no.  Many homosexuals in the United States (I will not comment about those in other lands) are interested in gaining access to minor children,

Yes, some are, CARLy, but alas, mostly just for the incredibly dull and unsexy purpose of parenting. 

As for 'gaining access' to such people for the purpose you imply (sex), lots of people want that, and it has nothing to do with whether they are straight or gay.   Remember, CARL-prude, the vast majority of abuse of children is accomplished by their biological parents.

Quote
and getting religious bodies to abandon traditional doctrine.

Obviously!  This is like a black getting the KKK to abandon its hate, or a Jew wanting the Nazi to abandon his project of exterminating him.  Of course the gay would want those hate-filled intolerants the religious to stop persecuting him.

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Second, is the issue of the extent of homosexuality in the United States.  The generally accepted percentage is between two and three per cent, not ten per cent as alledged by some.

Not particularly relevant, but the 10% sound far more realistic.

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Third, is the issue as to the cause of homosexuality.  Despite claims to the contrary, no valid scientific evidence has been produced of a 'gene' which causes homosexuality. 

Again, this is completely irrelevant.  Who cares what causes it?  You might as well obsess over why some people like sweets.
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« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2006, 11:16:55 am »
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Yes, some are, CARLy, but alas, mostly just for the incredibly dull and unsexy purpose of parenting. 

That, I have to admit, is spot on. There is no sinister motive in gay people wishing to adopt despite Carls' protestations to the contrary. They simply wish to be another rung on the childcare ladder for foster or adopted children who have been rejected by their parents or by wider society. Something that a lot of gay people can empathise with.
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« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2006, 06:40:31 pm »
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One in 10 people are born gay. 

Where did you get that statistic?  I didn't even think they had officially proven that people are born gay.  I thought it was just speculation and theory.

Rin-chan

Yeah!  And how do we REALLY know the Earth is round instead of flat? Smiley

Its abundantly obvious that people, en masse, do not choose to suffer discrimination and abuse.

The 10% number is an aggregation of a number of studies and surveys.  Until its put in the census, its probably impossible to get an exact number.

We really know the Earth is round because we can go into outer space and see it.  It's fact.

However, we can't rule out whether someone is possibly genetically gay verses someone who is gay because of their environment, such as childhood abuse or early interactions with family.

Not even the census can prove or disprove something like that.

Rin-chan

We can certainly rule out your theory given that there are gays that come from all kinds of backgrounds.  Do you really believe that most gays and lesbians are homosexual because they were abused as children or had some sort of abnormality occur to them?

You spread around your theory because its the only way you can justify bigotry and intolerance against gays - by suggesting that something abusive occured to them in childhood.

But lets just pretend you're right for a moment... that there is no genetic predisposition to homosexuality.  Lets pretend that all gays are just victims of abuse.  Isn't it sick of you to re-victimize someone - to not give them some hope of a normal life - sharing love with the partner of their choice?

I'm not saying they were all abused.  That was just an example.  If you payed attention to the "interactions with family" example, then you may have found a good example of the nurture argument.  Although Freud is a whack-job most of the time, he did come up with an interesting theory.  If a young child does not identify themselves with the same sex for whatever reason (opposite sex parent wasn't home enough or strongly preferred the mother or opposite sex parent was the strong, silent type, etc.), then the child will identify with members of the opposite sex and, therefore, take on characteristics normally attributed to that sex.

Erik Erikson believed that throughout our lives, we must solve different crises at different stages of our lives.  His fifth stage, identity vs. role confusion, says that children must find their place in society or become confused.  This includes sexual identity.

Now, I'm not saying that people aren't born homosexual, I'm saying that the statistic that 1 in every 10 children will become gay may not be completely accurate.

I'm also not saying that either of the above theories are correct, I'm just throwing them out there because neither of them have been disproved yet.

However, until there is undeniable proof that there is some sort of genetic link to homosexuality, I don't think that such statistics should be thrown around lightly.

Rin-chan

Then, until there is undeniable proof that there is no genetic link to homosexuality, and that its just a "lifestyle choice", why should we discriminate against gay and lesbian Americans?



Did I ever say we should?

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« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2006, 07:37:24 pm »
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One in 10 people are born gay. 

Where did you get that statistic?  I didn't even think they had officially proven that people are born gay.  I thought it was just speculation and theory.

Rin-chan

I believe the 10% figure is the one that Kinsey came up with.  There is a large amount of variance in the numbers depending on 1. the randomness of the polling, 2. the honesty of the polled (due to social stigma some people may not answer honestly), and 3. whether the poll involves self-identification of sexual orientation, asks if there have been multiple incidences of homosexual behavior, or asks if there has been even one instance of homosexual behavior (Some prison inmates will engage in homosexual behavior but claim to be straight.  Then there's guys who get drunk of fishing trips and fraternity initiations and the such).  Most neutral sources I've seen tend to indicate somewhere between 3-5% of the population self-identify as gay.

Secondly, there have been studies which show that individuals who are gay tend to have a higher percentage of gay relatives than those who are heterosexual.  That would tend to indicate a genetic factor in sexual orientation.

Thirdly, though some ancient civilizations (in particular the Greeks and Romans) engaged in both homosexuality and pedophilia, studies of the two find that peophilies are most often heterosexual, and the percent which are homosexual are about the same as the percentage of heterosexuals in the general population.
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« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2006, 01:53:45 pm »
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Yes, some are, CARLy, but alas, mostly just for the incredibly dull and unsexy purpose of parenting. 

That, I have to admit, is spot on. There is no sinister motive in gay people wishing to adopt despite Carls' protestations to the contrary. They simply wish to be another rung on the childcare ladder for foster or adopted children who have been rejected by their parents or by wider society. Something that a lot of gay people can empathise with.

Well, lets check into the proper usage of the english language.

First, 'many' does not mean all or most, just more than a few.

Second, are YOU asserting that NO 'gay people' wish to adopt for "sinister motive(s)" (you used the term, I didn't).

Third, I am not suprised that you agree with Obepo, as he has posted approval of sexual intercourse between minors and adults.
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« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2006, 02:02:04 pm »
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Third, I am not suprised that you agree with Obepo, as he has posted approval of sexual intercourse between minors and adults.


Are you implying that I approve of sexual intercourse between minors and adults?

Second, are YOU asserting that NO 'gay people' wish to adopt for "sinister motive(s)" (you used the term, I didn't).

No. But it is the general reality. There may be some, just as there are many straight couples who sexually abuse their adopted kids, but they are in the tiny, almost insignificant minority also.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 02:18:30 pm by afleitch »Logged

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« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2006, 02:42:13 pm »
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Third, I am not suprised that you agree with Obepo, as he has posted approval of sexual intercourse between minors and adults.


Are you implying that I approve of sexual intercourse between minors and adults?

Second, are YOU asserting that NO 'gay people' wish to adopt for "sinister motive(s)" (you used the term, I didn't).

No. But it is the general reality. There may be some, just as there are many straight couples who sexually abuse their adopted kids, but they are in the tiny, almost insignificant minority also.

First, its nice to know you diagree with Opebo about adults using minors.

Second, it also nice of you to now acknowledge that "there may be some" homosexuals who seek to adopt kids for "sinister motives."

Now, turning to the issue of environment as opposed to genetic baais for homosexuality, I have yet to see any credible evidence of genetic evidence of homosexuality.

What strikes me as interesting is that I have not seen any credible studies as to the sexual orientation of children (upon reaching adulthood) raised by heterosexuals versus children raised by homosexuals.  I suspect that when such studies are reported they will indicate a major differentiation in the sexual orientation of the two groups, giving further credance to the environmental theory. 


Oh, and to return to my original post.

Is it your contention that religious doctrine should be changed to comport with the wishes of homosexual activists?

If you had told told Episcopalians a hundred years ago that their church would end up endorsing homosexuality, they would have told you that you were nuts (for one example).


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« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2006, 02:47:27 pm »
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First, its nice to know you diagree with Opebo about adults using minors.


Does that mean that you thought I did agree with him beforehand? If that is the case, accusing me of condoning paedophilia would be a reportable offense to the moderator.


Second, it also nice of you to now acknowledge that "there may be some" homosexuals who seek to adopt kids for "sinister motives."


Would you also be so nice to acknowledge that there may be some heterosexuals who also seek to adopt kids for 'sinister motives'?
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« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2006, 03:07:33 pm »
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First, its nice to know you diagree with Opebo about adults using minors.


Does that mean that you thought I did agree with him beforehand? If that is the case, accusing me of condoning paedophilia would be a reportable offense to the moderator.


Second, it also nice of you to now acknowledge that "there may be some" homosexuals who seek to adopt kids for "sinister motives."


Would you also be so nice to acknowledge that there may be some heterosexuals who also seek to adopt kids for 'sinister motives'?

Unfortunately, yes, there are heterosexuals who seek to adopt children for "sinister" and 'venal' motives.  I hope you will join me in supporting efforts to prosecute those who sexually abuse minors.

I note that you both omitted to reply to my other points, and instead chose to combine an inference with a threat.  Hmm. 
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« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2006, 03:09:42 pm »
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I note that you both omitted to reply to my other points, and instead chose to combine an inference with a threat.  Hmm. 

Only because you refused to answer mine. Did you, or did you not imply or presume that I condoned sex with minors until I gave you an answer on the matter?
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« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2006, 03:41:44 pm »
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Secondly, there have been studies which show that individuals who are gay tend to have a higher percentage of gay relatives than those who are heterosexual.  That would tend to indicate a genetic factor in sexual orientation.



You're reading perhaps a bit too much into that.  It could be a learned trait (as could heterosexuality) or a congenital environmental influence.

In general, I do support the idea that gay people have identical civil rights of citizenship as other sexual types, e.g., they have the right to vote, free speech, to bear arms, and the same right that I do not to be beaten up on street corners.
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« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2006, 04:03:27 pm »
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I note that you both omitted to reply to my other points, and instead chose to combine an inference with a threat.  Hmm. 

Only because you refused to answer mine. Did you, or did you not imply or presume that I condoned sex with minors until I gave you an answer on the matter?

I thought that I made it clear in my previous post.

You inferred something I did NOT state.

Clear enough?

Now, will you respond to my other points without inferences or threats?
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« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2006, 04:16:42 pm »
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You inferred something I did NOT state.


I didn't say you stated it, I said you inferred it in the following post.


Third, I am not suprised that you agree with Obepo, as he has posted approval of sexual intercourse between minors and adults.


It inferred that you believed, in fact were 'not suprised' that I agreed with Opebo, because he posted approval of sexual relations with minors. This inferred that I agreed with him or at least condoned his position on sexual relations with minors which is catagorically not the case.

All you had to do was state, when I asked you the first time, that this was not your position.

Secondly, as you wish me to respond to your points I will.

1. Sexual Orientation and the causes of it are still an open book. The End.

2. I do not believe that religious doctrine should be changed universally, it is up to inidividual denominations to do so should they wish. (I'm a church going Catholic, but I don't demand the Church change its position simply because it is against my own) I also believe, through the study of theology that the translation of the original Greek in the NT, in particular the word 'aresenokoites' is incorrect, but it is up to scholars and churches to debate that issue should they also wish.

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« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2006, 05:20:06 pm »
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You inferred something I did NOT state.


I didn't say you stated it, I said you inferred it in the following post.


Third, I am not suprised that you agree with Obepo, as he has posted approval of sexual intercourse between minors and adults.


It inferred that you believed, in fact were 'not suprised' that I agreed with Opebo, because he posted approval of sexual relations with minors. This inferred that I agreed with him or at least condoned his position on sexual relations with minors which is catagorically not the case.

All you had to do was state, when I asked you the first time, that this was not your position.

Secondly, as you wish me to respond to your points I will.

1. Sexual Orientation and the causes of it are still an open book. The End.

2. I do not believe that religious doctrine should be changed universally, it is up to inidividual denominations to do so should they wish. (I'm a church going Catholic, but I don't demand the Church change its position simply because it is against my own) I also believe, through the study of theology that the translation of the original Greek in the NT, in particular the word 'aresenokoites' is incorrect, but it is up to scholars and churches to debate that issue should they also wish.



I. Inference

Ah, I am reminded of a debate between Congresswoman Clare Booth Luce and then Congressman J. William Fulbright.

Halfbright had the same problem with the English language which Luce corrected.

Now, Merriam-Webster defines infer as
 

Main Entry: in·fer
Pronunciation: in-'f&r
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): in·ferred; in·fer·ring
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French inferer, from Latin inferre, literally, to carry or bring into, from in- + ferre to carry -- more at BEAR
transitive verb
1 : to derive as a conclusion from facts or premises <we see smoke and infer fire -- L. A. White> -- compare IMPLY
2 : GUESS, SURMISE <your letter...allows me to infer that you are as well as ever --

So, you inferred something.  Simply put, an inference is something created by the reader/viewer/listener, not the sender.

II. Causation of homosexual orientation & children

Next, as to the causation of homosexual orientation, I once again note a lack of credible data to support the allegation of genetic predisposition.

Further, I would suggest that tolerance of adult homosexuality (if it were genetically based) would, in a couple of generations, largely resolve the matter.  Homosexuals should not be presured by societal norms to 'live a lie' and procreate with non-homosexuals.

Given the possibilty (which you appear to have acknowledged) that homosexual orientation is environmentally caused, should children be placed in an environment where homosexuality if promoted?

Now, I maintain that we need more data to accurately assess the environmental factors which may promote homosexual orientation.  Unfortunately, in part due to hysteria in many quarters, researchers are reluctant to conduct studies in this area.

III. Religious doctrine

Finally, it is nice to see that you appear to concur that religious doctrine should NOT be changed simply by a majority vote in a religious body.

As to problems with translations of Christian publications, I agree that there have been problems for centuries in this area.  Although I personally like the beauty of the language in the King James bible, I am aware that some of the wording is NOT faithful to original texts (have you ever had the opportunity to visit the Dead Sea Scrolls project at the Huntington Library).

Currently, in the United States, a couple of old line Protestant denominations are disintegrating based on efforts to rewrite dogma based on political correctness.  This is a major area in the United States of so-called 'gay rights' in the United States which is really angering a lot of people.
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« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2006, 05:23:21 pm »
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Oh dear.

Carl, have you not grasped the fact that I have pretty much been winding you up? Smiley You get very uptight and pedantic and I knew you would react this way (consulting dictionaries and fussing over the precise meanings of words) when faced with such arguments which is why I laboured the point.

However this

Next, as to the causation of homosexual orientation, I once again note a lack of credible data to support the allegation of genetic predisposition.

Is easily challenged. Have a look around some of the reports and you will find alot of study has gone into this field.

Though, since you like your proof read this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3735668.stm

and this

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/22/1728_56075?src=Inktomi&condition=Home%20&%20Top%20Stories

This from the American Psychological Association

'What Causes a Person To Have a Particular Sexual Orientation?

There are numerous theories about the origins of a person's sexual orientation; most scientists today agree that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors. In most people, sexual orientation is shaped at an early age. There is also considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person's sexuality. In summary, it is important to recognize that there are probably many reasons for a person's sexual orientation and the reasons may be different for different people.'

found here http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html#whatcauses

And then search Google- there is a world of information out there.

There are a variety of reasons as to why and what causes homosexuality and biological factorsa are part of this (but not all). By trying to exclude it from the debate you are dismissing decades of research by people who do this sort of thing for a living!

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« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2006, 09:07:53 pm »
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Well, lets review:

The Nuffield Council on Bioethics (2002) stated:

"There are numerous problems with genetic and other biological research ionto sexual orientation which means that any reported findings must ve view with caution."

The rest of the articles are about as credible as the psuedoscienc of 'phrenology.'
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« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2006, 09:17:04 pm »
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I note that you both omitted to reply to my other points, and instead chose to combine an inference with a threat.  Hmm. 

Hahaha! I can't believe the guy who has ignored so many replies to him and never provided evidence to his ridiculous claims has the nerves to say something like that.

CARLHAYDEN is a troll. He isn't worth your time, afleitch.
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« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2013, 01:21:37 pm »
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Can I point out to you that the gay rights movement is the US is at a differnent pace from that in say the UK. We have rights and abilities that we now take for granted, (civil partnerships, adoption, serving in the armed forces) that America will be unwilling to grant, even on many state levels for a generation.

Look how fast things have changed. Only 7 years ago, some expected it to take a generation (or more) for gays to be able to serve openly in the military, which one can already do. Smiley Also, a lot of US states have already allowed for gays to marry, including the largest one California. And quite a few more are expected to allow marriage equality within the next year or two, including Hawaii, Illinois and New Jersey. Also a few states like Colorado, are allowing gays to form civil unions. A majority of Americans already support gay marriage, quite a reversal since 5-6 year ago. And many analysts are expecting the US Supreme Court to rule that marriage equality is a constitutional right for all Americans within the not too distant future, let's say within the next 5-6 years, perhaps sooner. Smiley
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« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2013, 03:00:31 pm »
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Can I point out to you that the gay rights movement is the US is at a differnent pace from that in say the UK. We have rights and abilities that we now take for granted, (civil partnerships, adoption, serving in the armed forces) that America will be unwilling to grant, even on many state levels for a generation.

Look how fast things have changed. Only 7 years ago, some expected it to take a generation (or more) for gays to be able to serve openly in the military, which one can already do. Smiley Also, a lot of US states have already allowed for gays to marry, including the largest one California. And quite a few more are expected to allow marriage equality within the next year or two, including Hawaii, Illinois and New Jersey. Also a few states like Colorado, are allowing gays to form civil unions. A majority of Americans already support gay marriage, quite a reversal since 5-6 year ago. And many analysts are expecting the US Supreme Court to rule that marriage equality is a constitutional right for all Americans within the not too distant future, let's say within the next 5-6 years, perhaps sooner. Smiley

On issues like this, my heart leaps at being proven wrong Smiley
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« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2013, 04:59:25 pm »
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I don't know but here is what our country needs when it comes to civil rights.

There should be no Family Rule so that same sex couples can buy homes together.
Promote minority owned businesses by funding more for traditional African-American colleges.
Affirmative Action has been a strong benefactor to our public education system.
The state should fund more for after school programs in low income areas.
End racial profiling.
Hire more minority police.
Racial remarks are offensive, but sometimes taken out of context.
Confederate flag is offensive, but a symbol of free speech and heritage.
Private companies shouldn't be forced to hire more minorities as long as they don't discriminate.
Issue a commemorative postage stamp of Rosa Parks.
Extend hate crimes to include sexual orientation.
No discrimination based on sexual orientation.
Same sex marriage should be legal.
Gay adoptions are better than raising children in the system.
Gays in scouts are ok, but the scouts reserves their rights as a private organization.
Gay judges are ok but activists shouldn't be appointed anymore than other activists.
Don't ask, don't tell sounds silly, but it works.
I support the Violence Against Women Act.
More states should ratify the Equal Rights Amendment.
Cell phone wiretapping does a lot to prevent terrorism.
I would be tempted to vote for a constitutional amendment banning flag desecration.
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