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Author Topic: Impeachment of the President  (Read 8742 times)
Emsworth
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« on: July 15, 2006, 08:41:28 am »
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As Chief Justice, I am required by law to preside over the Senate while it considers articles of impeachment. Senator Jerusalemcar5 made the following statement:

Under Article 1, Section 2, Clause 1 of the Second Constitution of Atlasia I hereby call for impeachment proceedings to begin against President Ebowed for comitting several acts of murder, most notably Southeast Governor Harry. 

Further articles of impeachment may be presented by Senators at this time.
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2006, 08:42:41 am »

I won't support it and ask Jcar and Earl to stop now that a compromise has been made. No need for this now.
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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2006, 09:40:43 am »
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I will withdraw it.
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2006, 12:32:43 pm »
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The Senate is a bunch of pussies yet again.  This wouldn't have happened under my watch.
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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2006, 12:36:21 pm »

The Senate is a bunch of pussies yet again.  This wouldn't have happened under my watch.

We already know you hate everybody.
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« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2006, 12:37:34 pm »
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Before I accept the withdrawal of the article of impeachment, I have to ask Senator EarlAW to clarify whether this post was a call for impeachment proceedings.

Also, I would request Senator Captain Vlad to clarify whether this post was a request to start impeachment proceedings, or merely a suggestion that was put up for discussion.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 12:54:49 pm by Emsworth »Logged
MasterJedi
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« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2006, 12:39:29 pm »

Before I accept the withdrawal of the article of impeachment, I have to ask Senator EarlAW to clarify whether this post was a call for impeachment proceedings.

Also, I would request Senator Captain Vlad to clarify whetherthis post was a request to start impeachment proceedings, or merely a suggestion that was put up for discussion.

If both of those were impeachments wouldn't all three of them have to withdraw the proposals? If so 2 of 3 are left.
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« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2006, 01:38:46 pm »
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The Senate is a bunch of pussies yet again.  This wouldn't have happened under my watch.

For once, I agree with you Spade.

I told Ebowed, that while I forgive him (the honourable Christian thing to do) he should still be punished for his actions.

Emsworth, while I support the Presidents' impeachment, I have not actually called the Senate to hear it.
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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2006, 01:01:38 am »
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Before I accept the withdrawal of the article of impeachment, I have to ask Senator EarlAW to clarify whether this post was a call for impeachment proceedings.

Also, I would request Senator Captain Vlad to clarify whether this post was a request to start impeachment proceedings, or merely a suggestion that was put up for discussion.

Sorry it took me so long.

That was put up for discussion and was not intended to start any official proceedings.
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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2006, 07:33:33 am »
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While this may be a deeply unpopular move, I feel I must ask that impeachment proceedings be brought.

Whilest I feel that up until a few days ago, Ebowed was a President of the highest order who I was greatly pleased to see re-elected, I do not share my colleagues predilictions in favour of simply forgetting the recent incidents - an attitude I find quite disturbing.

The actions of recent days, I feel, represent, a gross violation and abdication of responsibilities which demand reproachment. Without this, we are sending a message that the recent actions were acceptable. To me, they were not.

As I say, I do not make this statement and call for impeachment proceedings lightly, but I feel it is the principled thing to do.
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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2006, 07:51:55 am »
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While this may be a deeply unpopular move, I feel I must ask that impeachment proceedings be brought.

Whilest I feel that up until a few days ago, Ebowed was a President of the highest order who I was greatly pleased to see re-elected, I do not share my colleagues predilictions in favour of simply forgetting the recent incidents - an attitude I find quite disturbing.

The actions of recent days, I feel, represent, a gross violation and abdication of responsibilities which demand reproachment. Without this, we are sending a message that the recent actions were acceptable. To me, they were not.

As I say, I do not make this statement and call for impeachment proceedings lightly, but I feel it is the principled thing to do.
In that case, I would request Senator Jas, as well as any other Senators who wish for impeachment, to present formal articles of impeachment that outline the high crimes and misdemeanors allegedly committed by the President.

Each separate alleged offense should be named in a separate article of impeachment.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 08:01:02 am by Emsworth »Logged
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2006, 08:15:31 am »
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Out of curiosity, I would like to ask supporters of this impeachment where they would have stood on the following situations had they been in a relevant position of authority at the stated time:
* The re-election of DanielX to the Senate in November of 2005;
* The appointment of True Democrat to Game Moderator in May of 2006;
* The motion to expel Senator Keystone Phil in June of 2006.

Thanks in advance.
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2006, 09:02:03 am »
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Article I
In his conduct of the office of President of Atlasia, Ebowed, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of Atlasia and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, has exceeded his lawful authority and violated his oath of office in willfully overriding the democratic rights of the Atlasian people in ordering the removal of properly elected members of the Atlasian Senate.

In that:
(1) On 14 July 2006, Ebowed did declare that EarlAW was no longer a member of the Atlasian Senate.
(2) On 15 July 2006, Ebowed did declare that jerusalemcar5 was no longer a member of the Atlasian Senate.
(3) On 15 July 2006, Ebowed did declare that Captain Vlad was no longer a member of the Atlasian Senate.

In doing this, Ebowed has undermined the integrity of his office, has brought disrepute on the Presidency, has betrayed his trust as President and has acted in a manner subversive of the rule of law and justice, to the manifest injury of the people of the Atlasia.

Wherefore, Ebowed, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, and removal from office.

Article II
In his conduct of the office of President of Atlasia, Ebowed, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of Atlasia and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, has exceeded his lawful authority and violated his oath of office in overriding the democratic rights of the Atlasian people in ordering the debarrment of an Atlasian citizen from holding elected office.

In that:
On 15 July 2006, Ebowed declared that Speed of Sound was barred from holding office in Atlasia for a period of one year.

In doing this, Ebowed has undermined the integrity of his office, has brought disrepute on the Presidency, has betrayed his trust as President and has acted in a manner subversive of the rule of law and justice, to the manifest injury of the people of the Atlasia.

Wherefore, Ebowed, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, and removal from office.

Article III
In his conduct of the office of President of Atlasia, Ebowed, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of Atlasia and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, has exceeded his lawful authority and violated his oath of office in violating the constitutional rights to freedom of the press and freedom of speech of an Atlasian citizen.

In that:
On 15 July 2006, Ebowed declared that the Atlasian Messanger newspaper, edited by Atlasian citizen Speed of Sound was banned, contrary to Article VI, Clause IV of the Atlasian Constitution.

In doing this, Ebowed has undermined the integrity of his office, has brought disrepute on the Presidency, has betrayed his trust as President and has acted in a manner subversive of the rule of law and justice, to the manifest injury of the people of the Atlasia.

Wherefore, Ebowed, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, and removal from office.
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2006, 09:18:25 am »
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A few notes to consider.

Firstly, I stated repeatedly following the closure of this "incident" that my actions in the Important Announcement thread were of a nonserious nature, as well as null & void.  It is plainly obvious that the nature and style used in the posts by yours truly in the aforementioned threads were over the top; as an example, in response to EarlAW calling me "insane," I stated that his remarks were making me literally ill.  In my initial "firing" of EarlAW from the Senate, I stated I was "delighted" to announce it and claimed that he had been removed five minutes before the post had been made; I will let this testament to how serious the post was speak for itself.  It is quite obvious to anyone who is not set on writing articles of impeachment that these posts were not official, nor were they meant to be constitutionally sound or actual executive decisions.  Had these decisions been serious I surely would have sent word through to the President of the Senate that he was meant to recognize my vacancies as valid.

Second, I have made it a tradition throughout my service in the Presidency that official announcements, proposals, and speeches are posted in one thread and one thread only: the White House.  In the past I have deviated from this only for state of the union addresses and my initial inauguration address; recently even these have been posted in the White House.  The fact that my "important announcement" was posted in a separate thread is notable.

Third, while the second and third articles of impeachment would be valid as unconstitutional actions were they to be taken seriously as official executive decisions, it appeared to be the general opinion of various members of the Court and public that it is not strictly unconstitutional for a President to dismiss a Senator.  The fact that a constitutional amendment has been proposed to alleviate this loophole here speaks volumes; the Senate therefore has absolutely no reason to vote in favor of the first article brought fourth.  I should note that it is not my intention to suggest that the serious firing of Senators by the President is a morally sound procedure.  I believe I have made it clear that this would be inconsistent with my political philosophy and my general view regarding how the government is supposed to work: I opposed a former President's proposal that would allow him to directly introduce legislation to the Senate, and in real life politics I have been opposed to various extensions of power by the Bush administration in the name of fighting terrorism.  Given these points, I think it is quite clear that the nonserious nature of the "Important Announcement" thread is not something that may be easily dismissed.
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« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2006, 09:46:19 am »
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A few notes to consider.

Firstly, I stated repeatedly following the closure of this "incident" that my actions in the Important Announcement thread were of a nonserious nature, as well as null & void.  It is plainly obvious that the nature and style used in the posts by yours truly in the aforementioned threads were over the top; as an example, in response to EarlAW calling me "insane," I stated that his remarks were making me literally ill.  In my initial "firing" of EarlAW from the Senate, I stated I was "delighted" to announce it and claimed that he had been removed five minutes before the post had been made; I will let this testament to how serious the post was speak for itself.  It is quite obvious to anyone who is not set on writing articles of impeachment that these posts were not official, nor were they meant to be constitutionally sound or actual executive decisions.  Had these decisions been serious I surely would have sent word through to the President of the Senate that he was meant to recognize my vacancies as valid.

It is plainly untrue that I was the only Atlasian who considered these actions to be offical actions.

If this was true, why did the newly appointed Secretary of Forum Affairs Peter Bell seek official clarification from the leaders of the Senate? (See here.)
Why also, did your own Vice-President then move to have you declared unable to discharge the powers and duties of your office and your newly appointed Secretary of Defence vote in favour? (See here.)

These are officials you chose and they quite clearly were not of the opinion that your actions were merely a joke. Of course, they were not alone - the incidents provoked the administrations of the Midwest and Southeast to action.

Second, I have made it a tradition throughout my service in the Presidency that official announcements, proposals, and speeches are posted in one thread and one thread only: the White House.  In the past I have deviated from this only for state of the union addresses and my initial inauguration address; recently even these have been posted in the White House.  The fact that my "important announcement" was posted in a separate thread is notable.

As I've stated above, the declarations were taken seriously by many Atlasians, be they citizens are members at all levels of government. To infer that declarations by the President, in the Government board, can be safely ignored, is not one which I accept.

Third, while the second and third articles of impeachment would be valid as unconstitutional actions were they to be taken seriously as official executive decisions, it appeared to be the general opinion of various members of the Court and public that it is not strictly unconstitutional for a President to dismiss a Senator.  The fact that a constitutional amendment has been proposed to alleviate this loophole here speaks volumes; the Senate therefore has absolutely no reason to vote in favor of the first article brought fourth.  I should note that it is not my intention to suggest that the serious firing of Senators by the President is a morally sound procedure.  I believe I have made it clear that this would be inconsistent with my political philosophy and my general view regarding how the government is supposed to work: I opposed a former President's proposal that would allow him to directly introduce legislation to the Senate, and in real life politics I have been opposed to various extensions of power by the Bush administration in the name of fighting terrorism.  Given these points, I think it is quite clear that the nonserious nature of the "Important Announcement" thread is not something that may be easily dismissed.

Once again, I reiterate that your actions were taken seriously by many. As to the matter of your ability to expel Senators, the constitution grants you executive power. This is in fact a limitation - the President shall exercise executive power, a power which is not limitless. While it may not be defined point by point in the Constitution, one cannot assume that it is limitless. We must look to precedent and standard practice. If serious legal precedent for including the right to dismiss members of the legislature as a standard part of executive power can be produced, I would be greatly surprised.

Finally, I would say that you took an oath to faithfully execute the office of President and uphold the Constitution. The actions of recent days, to me, are anathema to that Oath. I do not believe it is fair to simply overlook and ignore that.
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« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2006, 09:59:28 am »
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It is plainly untrue that I was the only Atlasian who considered these actions to be offical actions.

I did not say this was the case.

If this was true, why did the newly appointed Secretary of Forum Affairs Peter Bell seek official clarification from the leaders of the Senate? (See here.)

I corresponded with the Secretary of Forum Affairs before he posted his thread, telling him that he was free to post his clarification request because I was sure that the PPT and President of the Senate would not consider my actions official.

Why also, did your own Vice-President then move to have you declared unable to discharge the powers and duties of your office and your newly appointed Secretary of Defence vote in favour? (See here.)

As you are likely aware, I was very busy while these events occurred and while I was able to briefly correspond with Q, I had many conversations going on at the same time throughout the course of that evening and was unable to inform him that because of the way the situation had turned out, everything was being reverted (per my proposal to Earl and other allegedly affected persons) before he posted this thread.  The fact that my Internet access kept going out that evening, which several can attest to, was not a great help in both the proposal process and attempting to discuss the situation with the Vice-President.

As to why the Secretary of Defense signed it, you should note that he found the situation amusing and only signed for the sake of national stability - due to the way some certain people were stubbornly reacting, it was in all actuality better that Q take reigns while I attempted to work something out with the Social Democratic Party.

As I've stated above, the declarations were taken seriously by many Atlasians, be they citizens are members at all levels of government. ... Once again, I reiterate that your actions were taken seriously by many.

This is an appeal to popularity fallacy and has no relevance to the constitutional aspect of the matter.
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« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2006, 10:04:23 am »
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has acted in a manner subversive of the rule of law and justice ... has acted in a manner subversive of the rule of law and justice ... has acted in a manner subversive of the rule of law and justice

By the way, how many times has this happened?  How many people have been punished for that?  I made this point earlier:

Out of curiosity, I would like to ask supporters of this impeachment where they would have stood on the following situations had they been in a relevant position of authority at the stated time:
* The re-election of DanielX to the Senate in November of 2005;
* The appointment of True Democrat to Game Moderator in May of 2006;
* The motion to expel Senator Keystone Phil in June of 2006.

Thanks in advance.

The fact that no response has yet been given by one of the parties here who is quite forceful in demanding my impeachment is only confirming my suspicions.  The double standard being applied here is certainly worth considering, especially because in the aforementioned cases all of the guilty parties were serious in their attempts to subvert the rule of law and justice.
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« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2006, 10:11:51 am »
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Finally, I would say that you took an oath to faithfully execute the office of President and uphold the Constitution. The actions of recent days, to me, are anathema to that Oath. I do not believe it is fair to simply overlook and ignore that.

This reminds me of Clinton's impeachment trial, only less worthy of a cause.

It is true that I did swear in and affirm to uphold the Constitution and faithfully execute the duties of my office:
I, Ebowed, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully execute the office of President and will, to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the Republic of Atlasia, so help me Dave.

Let me ask the Senator; am I currently insisting that Senators EarlAW, Captain Vlad, and jerusalemcar5 were actually dismissed at my request?  Am I attempting to enforce that Speed Of Sound does not hold office for the next year?  Are bans on his newspaper actually being enforced?  Actually, his newspaper was recently bought by Atlasian World News, making Speed Of Sound a Game Moderator.  So his newspaper isn't banned and he's got official powers as Game Moderator- if these actions of mine that you claim caused so much injury to Atlasian persons were serious, why are they not in effect?
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« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2006, 06:18:19 pm »
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This is GAY.  If yall are going to impeach him, impeach him for MURDER, not other stuff...otherwise just shut up and get back to business (I'd rather the latter).
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« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2006, 07:15:28 pm »
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Why also, did your own Vice-President then move to have you declared unable to discharge the powers and duties of your office and your newly appointed Secretary of Defence vote in favour? (See here.)

As I outlined in an address to the nation, at the time, I believed, and still believe, that President Ebowed was not within his right mind during this controversy.  I thus believed it necessary to temporarily relieve him of his duties, so as to diffuse the entire situation.  I have since withdrawn my declaration.
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« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2006, 08:30:08 pm »
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This is GAY.  If yall are going to impeach him, impeach him for MURDER, not other stuff...otherwise just shut up and get back to business (I'd rather the latter).

Yes, I'd say that was a good reason. Well, not murder, but attempted murder Wink
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« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2006, 08:46:18 pm »
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This is GAY.  If yall are going to impeach him, impeach him for MURDER, not other stuff...otherwise just shut up and get back to business (I'd rather the latter).

Yes, I'd say that was a good reason. Well, not murder, but attempted murder Wink
The Senator is free to introduce an article of impeachment that charges the President with murder/ attempted murder.
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« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2006, 11:51:13 am »
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It is plainly untrue that I was the only Atlasian who considered these actions to be offical actions.

I did not say this was the case.

That is how I interpreted the following:
It is quite obvious to anyone who is not set on writing articles of impeachment that these posts were not official, nor were they meant to be constitutionally sound or actual executive decisions.
As I was/am the only one 'set on writing articles of impeachment', it seemed to me that it was only directed at me. However this is getting off point and is irrelevant to the proceedings so I shall move on.

If this was true, why did the newly appointed Secretary of Forum Affairs Peter Bell seek official clarification from the leaders of the Senate? (See here.)

I corresponded with the Secretary of Forum Affairs before he posted his thread, telling him that he was free to post his clarification request because I was sure that the PPT and President of the Senate would not consider my actions official.

Why also, did your own Vice-President then move to have you declared unable to discharge the powers and duties of your office and your newly appointed Secretary of Defence vote in favour? (See here.)

As you are likely aware, I was very busy while these events occurred and while I was able to briefly correspond with Q, I had many conversations going on at the same time throughout the course of that evening and was unable to inform him that because of the way the situation had turned out, everything was being reverted (per my proposal to Earl and other allegedly affected persons) before he posted this thread.  The fact that my Internet access kept going out that evening, which several can attest to, was not a great help in both the proposal process and attempting to discuss the situation with the Vice-President.

As to why the Secretary of Defense signed it, you should note that he found the situation amusing and only signed for the sake of national stability - due to the way some certain people were stubbornly reacting, it was in all actuality better that Q take reigns while I attempted to work something out with the Social Democratic Party.

I would like to ask for clarification here.
(1) Are you stating that the Vice President took your actions seriously and was quite correct to move to have you removed from office for your actions?
(2) Are you saying that you actually felt it would have been appropriate had Q 'taken the reigns' from you?
(3) Would you agree with the Secretary of Defence's apparant opinion:
(a) that your actions went too far,
(b) that you threatened the stability of the nation,
(c) that you caused a revolution and;
(d) that you were exercising dictatorial powers?
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« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2006, 12:10:28 pm »
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has acted in a manner subversive of the rule of law and justice ... has acted in a manner subversive of the rule of law and justice ... has acted in a manner subversive of the rule of law and justice

By the way, how many times has this happened?  How many people have been punished for that?

I have no idea how many times it happened before or how many people were punished, and quite frankly, I don't care. I believe that it is true, that it is unacceptable and that something must be done.

I made this point earlier:

Out of curiosity, I would like to ask supporters of this impeachment where they would have stood on the following situations had they been in a relevant position of authority at the stated time:
* The re-election of DanielX to the Senate in November of 2005;
* The appointment of True Democrat to Game Moderator in May of 2006;
* The motion to expel Senator Keystone Phil in June of 2006.

Thanks in advance.

The fact that no response has yet been given by one of the parties here who is quite forceful in demanding my impeachment is only confirming my suspicions.  The double standard being applied here is certainly worth considering, especially because in the aforementioned cases all of the guilty parties were serious in their attempts to subvert the rule of law and justice.

This strikes me as an attempt to divert the course of these proceedings, but I will answer.

On the matter of DanielX's re-election:
At the time that that particular revolt began, I was the Midwest's Lt. Governor. When Governor CheeseWhiz, DanielX et al made their intentions known, I formally asked the Governor to resign because I felt that the principled thing to do was to stand down from his Atlasian office. He did so immediately, an act I still admire and respect as the correct move. To this day, I retain respect and trust for CheeseWhiz as someone who took great consideration of the rights and responsibilities of office. I did not support the election of either CheeseWhiz or DanielX to the Senate in the immediate aftermath of the revolt, but I received legal advice from a number of respected and well-placed sources to the effect that there was nothing which could be done in the circumstances. I would point out that after an appropriate time and a renewed acceptance of the structures of the State, that I voted for CheeseWhiz in a later Senate race.

On the matter of True Democrat's appointment as GM:
As you know you asked me my opinions on the matter of whom to appoint as GM when that vacancy arose. I made a number of suggestions. TD wasn't among them. With all due respect to him, I didn't consider it to be appropriate given recent events. Nonetheless given the difficulty in finding a GM, I understood the decision.

On Keystone Phil:
I believe that I am on record, about that time, as having stated that I did not support the rebellion. I believe that any member of government who acts in such a manner can reasonably expect to keep his place in it. I would thus have supported the expulsion.

It is for similar reasons that I feel it is appropriate that you resign/be impeached. You took an oath of office, which as far as I'm concerned, you proceeded to ignore. In my opinion, the President should be above such actions. I am in a position where I can act and try to effect change (unlike in any of the three above situations) and so I have. On point of principle, I beleive it is the only honourable thing to do.
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« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2006, 12:18:42 pm »
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Finally, I would say that you took an oath to faithfully execute the office of President and uphold the Constitution. The actions of recent days, to me, are anathema to that Oath. I do not believe it is fair to simply overlook and ignore that.

This reminds me of Clinton's impeachment trial, only less worthy of a cause.

It is true that I did swear in and affirm to uphold the Constitution and faithfully execute the duties of my office:
I, Ebowed, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully execute the office of President and will, to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the Republic of Atlasia, so help me Dave.

Let me ask the Senator; am I currently insisting that Senators EarlAW, Captain Vlad, and jerusalemcar5 were actually dismissed at my request?  Am I attempting to enforce that Speed Of Sound does not hold office for the next year?  Are bans on his newspaper actually being enforced?  Actually, his newspaper was recently bought by Atlasian World News, making Speed Of Sound a Game Moderator.  So his newspaper isn't banned and he's got official powers as Game Moderator- if these actions of mine that you claim caused so much injury to Atlasian persons were serious, why are they not in effect?

I would say that it is not relevant what you are now calling for, only what you did call for.
I would return many of the questions back to you:
(1) Did you insist that Senator EarlAW be dismissed?
(2) Did you insist that Senator jerusalemcar5 be dismissed?
(3) Did you insist that Senator Captain Vlad be dismissed?
(4) Did you declare that Speed of Sound was debarred from holding office?
(5) Did you declare limitations of his right to freedom of speech and freedom of the press?

These impeachment proceedings are not about the present state of affairs, nor should they be. It is my contention that you flagrantly violated your oath of office. I would ask:
(1) Do you believe that during the time in question, you did faithfully execute the office of President?
(2) Did you to the best of your ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the Republic of Atlasia?
Logged

Funny 'cause it's true:
Very few people seriously allow facts to affect their opinions.

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