France shows her weakness once again

[MODU]

Israel is now calling for France to step aside and let Italy take over as the lead of the international forces, since France is unwilling to adequately provide enough troops.

[Maastricht]

France will increase its deployment to 2.000 soldiers ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/24/AR2006082401106.html

[MODU]

France will increase its deployment to 2.000 soldiers ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/24/AR2006082401106.html

It's about time.  Still, I think Italy should take over the operation since they are showing the initiative.  France is dragging their feet.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Germany's sending 3500.

They should send more.

Why the hell are there so much peacekeeping troops from 3rd World Countries like Bangladesh, Nepal, Pakistan, India where most people have nothing to eat, while the "alledged beacon of liberty and democracy" - i´m talking about the US, is hated to such an extent in this region that they can´t even deploy troops there ? I find this disturbing, really.

US shouldn't sent troops, we're too far on the side of Israel to have a proper peace keeping force. Teh 3rd world nations actually have the balls to do the job of the UN while most of the countries in Europe talk big about what should happen but when the moment comes they don't do crap (and blame the US for not doing everything their way).

That´s not what i mean. The US currently have about 500 times the troops for fighting a war (a war in Iraq which had nothing to do with Sept. 11) than peacekeeping forces around the world. The US actually had about 350 peacekeeping troops under the mandate of the UN. Even tiny Austria has about 400 peacekeepers on the Golan Heights next to Israel, Syria and Lebanon.

So? It's not like the UN peacekeeping troops do any good. They aren't really allowed to do anything and when the guns start fireing the France (and other European countries) get scared and force the UN to pull out. Have the US send peacekeeping troops to the area seperate from the UN, maybe then something would get done.

The thing is to keep the peace. The UN troops should be some kind of referree there. These troops shouldn´t even be attacked. And when there´s a ceasefire and peace agreement there should be no fighting, from the Hisbollah and from Israel. When the UN troops are doing their job, Hisbollah is quiet, or better if their arms are removed by the UN forces and Israel is within it´s borders, everything would be ok. If Hisbollah again attacks Israel despite the ceasefire, then it´s illegitimate. UN-Missions are not always doomed to fail as you can see in Congo where elections were held now. But you are right when it comes to the US troop deployment in Lebanon. You know what happens when US troops are deployed there (1983 bombing). As long as you are seen as occupators there nothing will change.

The simple truth is that UN forces are worse than worthless.

They have a history of turning a blind eye to the activities of hisbollah etc. (defacto serving as the defender of such terrorists).

[ilikeverin]

As long as you are seen as occupators there nothing will change.

Precisely; we will always be seen as occupiers (due to Muslim extremists warping the minds of Middle Easterners), so American troops serving in UN forces in the Middle East would be dangerous to the troops, to the UN at large, and to the peace process in general.

That being said, we might want to provide assistance to other regions, but still.  US troops in Lebanon would be dangerous for all involved.

[freek]

Why the hell are there so much peacekeeping troops from 3rd World Countries like Bangladesh, Nepal, Pakistan, India where most people have nothing to eat,

Because the UN pays them, and their soldiers, rather well.

[Maastricht]

France will increase its deployment to 2.000 soldiers ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/24/AR2006082401106.html

It's about time.  Still, I think Italy should take over the operation since they are showing the initiative.  France is dragging their feet.

Well, I'm afflicted ... but before this a country whose initial ones are U, S and A provided weapons to Israel and encouraged the continuation of their offensive against Lebanon, so you might understand that France is asking itself questions about the legitimacy of USA's position...
Moreover, many French and European people find quite ... shocking, or at least disturbing, that a part of USA's politicians and public opinion is complaining about slowness (2 unhappy weeks!).
After all, aren't France and EU just trying to repair the damages caused by an unclear war nearly officially supported by the USA ? It's a real pleasure,  to hear Bush saying he's deceived that France hasn't send enough boys to clean up USA's mess ...

[dazzleman]

France will increase its deployment to 2.000 soldiers ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/24/AR2006082401106.html

It's about time.  Still, I think Italy should take over the operation since they are showing the initiative.  France is dragging their feet.

Well, I'm afflicted ... but before this a country whose initial ones are U, S and A provided weapons to Israel and encouraged the continuation of their offensive against Lebanon, so you might understand that France is asking itself questions about the legitimacy of USA's position...
Moreover, many French and European people find quite ... shocking, or at least disturbing, that a part of USA's politicians and public opinion is complaining about slowness (2 unhappy weeks!).
After all, aren't France and EU just trying to repair the damages caused by an unclear war nearly officially supported by the USA ? It's a real pleasure,  to hear Bush saying he's deceived that France hasn't send enough boys to clean up USA's mess ...

Well, I'd say that even if this is the USA's mess (highly debatable), cleaning it up will cost France far less in terms of lives and money than the US has spent in dealing with messes that France created by commission or omission (say, Vietnam, not to mention WW II), so we're not even close to being even.

[minionofmidas]

France will increase its deployment to 2.000 soldiers ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/24/AR2006082401106.html

It's about time.  Still, I think Italy should take over the operation since they are showing the initiative.  France is dragging their feet.

Well, I'm afflicted ... but before this a country whose initial ones are U, S and A provided weapons to Israel and encouraged the continuation of their offensive against Lebanon, so you might understand that France is asking itself questions about the legitimacy of USA's position...
Moreover, many French and European people find quite ... shocking, or at least disturbing, that a part of USA's politicians and public opinion is complaining about slowness (2 unhappy weeks!).
After all, aren't France and EU just trying to repair the damages caused by an unclear war nearly officially supported by the USA ? It's a real pleasure,  to hear Bush saying he's deceived that France hasn't send enough boys to clean up USA's mess ...

Well, I'd say that even if this is the USA's mess (highly debatable), cleaning it up will cost France far less in terms of lives and money than the US has spent in dealing with messes that France created by commission or omission (say, Vietnam, not to mention WW II), so we're not even close to being even.

France tried to clean up its own mess in Vietnam - ie hand power peacefully over to Ho Chi Minh. They were thwarted by the US of A.

[dazzleman]

France will increase its deployment to 2.000 soldiers ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/24/AR2006082401106.html

It's about time.  Still, I think Italy should take over the operation since they are showing the initiative.  France is dragging their feet.

Well, I'm afflicted ... but before this a country whose initial ones are U, S and A provided weapons to Israel and encouraged the continuation of their offensive against Lebanon, so you might understand that France is asking itself questions about the legitimacy of USA's position...
Moreover, many French and European people find quite ... shocking, or at least disturbing, that a part of USA's politicians and public opinion is complaining about slowness (2 unhappy weeks!).
After all, aren't France and EU just trying to repair the damages caused by an unclear war nearly officially supported by the USA ? It's a real pleasure,  to hear Bush saying he's deceived that France hasn't send enough boys to clean up USA's mess ...

Well, I'd say that even if this is the USA's mess (highly debatable), cleaning it up will cost France far less in terms of lives and money than the US has spent in dealing with messes that France created by commission or omission (say, Vietnam, not to mention WW II), so we're not even close to being even.

France tried to clean up its own mess in Vietnam - ie hand power peacefully over to Ho Chi Minh. They were thwarted by the US of A.

They did it too late.  They should never have gone back in after World War II.  I don't blame the French for the whole mess -- the US obviously had its share of missteps.  But the whole problem would have been avoided if it weren't for the French.

I say all this not so much to bash the French, but in response to the point that the French are being ask to clean up the USA's mess in Lebanon.

[minionofmidas]

They did it too late.  They should never have gone back in after World War II.

True of course ... same could be said for a lot of places. Think Indonesia.

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It's not a very valid analogy.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

There is a fundamental problem with the UN - a body which I've studied - and remain a believer in its potential - especially when it comes to issues of peacekeeping is that the rules of engagement are so unbelieveably weak - since International Law is voluntary and the UN cannot send troops in unilaterally.

- They cannot defend civlians or infrastructure from being attacked -unless they happen to be fired upon first.

- Peacekeeping doesn't reflect what they are actually doing - they usually arrive to stabilize a situation, rather than attempt to maintain it.

The US doesn't have the best reputation for its UN-Peacekeeping roles - primarily because mostly PK missions are multi-national, under a uniform set of rules of engagement - it is US Military policy (check it) that US troops are never to serve under such rules.

France should do much much more than its doing - they are dealing with Cote d'Ivoire - which was their doing also.

[ilikeverin]

France will increase its deployment to 2.000 soldiers ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/24/AR2006082401106.html

It's about time.  Still, I think Italy should take over the operation since they are showing the initiative.  France is dragging their feet.

Well, I'm afflicted ... but before this a country whose initial ones are U, S and A provided weapons to Israel and encouraged the continuation of their offensive against Lebanon, so you might understand that France is asking itself questions about the legitimacy of USA's position...
Moreover, many French and European people find quite ... shocking, or at least disturbing, that a part of USA's politicians and public opinion is complaining about slowness (2 unhappy weeks!).
After all, aren't France and EU just trying to repair the damages caused by an unclear war nearly officially supported by the USA ? It's a real pleasure,  to hear Bush saying he's deceived that France hasn't send enough boys to clean up USA's mess ...

Are you kidding?  The conflict in the Middle East is the United States's fault?  It is certainly not the United States's fault, nor Israel's fault, nor Lebanon's fault, nor Hezbollah's fault, nor Iran's fault, nor anyone else's fault.  It is the offspring of deep religious tension caused by centuries of misunderstanding, scores of power-hungry religious officials, legions of misguided followers, and several unfortunate mistakes.  To try to pin the conflict on one country, let alone one not even in the region, is severely underestimating the true complexity of the Middle Eastern situation.

[CARLHAYDEN]

France will increase its deployment to 2.000 soldiers ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/24/AR2006082401106.html

It's about time.  Still, I think Italy should take over the operation since they are showing the initiative.  France is dragging their feet.

Well, I'm afflicted ... but before this a country whose initial ones are U, S and A provided weapons to Israel and encouraged the continuation of their offensive against Lebanon, so you might understand that France is asking itself questions about the legitimacy of USA's position...
Moreover, many French and European people find quite ... shocking, or at least disturbing, that a part of USA's politicians and public opinion is complaining about slowness (2 unhappy weeks!).
After all, aren't France and EU just trying to repair the damages caused by an unclear war nearly officially supported by the USA ? It's a real pleasure,  to hear Bush saying he's deceived that France hasn't send enough boys to clean up USA's mess ...

First, welcome to the forum.

Second, you really have a highly defective understanding of the situation .

What happened was that terrorists kidnapped Israeli citizens.  The Israeli government demanded their return.  The terrorists (who operate in places like Lebanon) refused to return the kidnapped Israeli's.  Israel used legitimate force to deal with the terrorist (insufficent force in my opinion).

Third, the French government is headed by two sociopaths who hate the United States.  Both the Preisent of France, and its Premier are VERY EVIL, EVIL men who will stop at nothing in their hatred of the United States and their veneration of evil.

Fourth, the "mess" is in large part caused by slimebags like De Vellipin.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Third, the French government is headed by two sociopaths who hate the United States.  Both the Preisent of France, and its Premier are VERY EVIL, EVIL men who will stop at nothing in their hatred of the United States and their veneration of evil.

Speaking of hatred against certain countries...

[??????????]

Third, the French government is headed by two sociopaths who hate the United States.  Both the Preisent of France, and its Premier are VERY EVIL, EVIL men who will stop at nothing in their hatred of the United States and their veneration of evil.

Speaking of hatred against certain countries...

And something is wrong with that..how?

[Middle-aged Europe]

Third, the French government is headed by two sociopaths who hate the United States.  Both the Preisent of France, and its Premier are VERY EVIL, EVIL men who will stop at nothing in their hatred of the United States and their veneration of evil.

Speaking of hatred against certain countries...

And something is wrong with that..how?

*rollseyes*

[Maastricht]

Are you kidding?  The conflict in the Middle East is the United States's fault?  It is certainly not the United States's fault, nor Israel's fault, nor Lebanon's fault, nor Hezbollah's fault, nor Iran's fault, nor anyone else's fault.  It is the offspring of deep religious tension caused by centuries of misunderstanding, scores of power-hungry religious officials, legions of misguided followers, and several unfortunate mistakes.  To try to pin the conflict on one country, let alone one not even in the region, is severely underestimating the true complexity of the Middle Eastern situation.

I didn't said the whole thing since 1947, I was just speaking of 2006's conflict... Both Israel and Hezbollah can be blamed for this, but I think it should be the same for USA ... Everybody knows Israel do follow Bush's orders : hasn't he unofficially authorized Israel to continue the war for three more weeks in mid-july ? Bush had the power to stop Tsahal's invasion. Of course Hezbollah would still have been a big problem if war ceased in mid july. But for the same result we had one useless month of war... Bush could have stop it.

First, welcome to the forum.

Well, thanks, but just check my profile : Date Registered:  September 18, 2004, 08:38:30 pm

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God, I wish my whole life should be that clear and simple ...

I don't think of having deferred on Israel the whole responsibility for this conflict, far from there. I just allow myself to express my surprise about  the hypocrisy of the current foreign policy of the USA towards Lebanon.

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Sociopaths, OK But they do not hate the USA. And it's the same mistake people commit for 99% of French People. What we do not like is puritanism, ultra neo-conservatism. This way of thinking according to which God and the fatherland is what one must live for. Unfortunately, this description corresponds to Bush.

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American humour ?

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Don't worry about it, he's rotting somewhere in Hotel Matignon, we havn't seen him on TV for about two months. This guy is trying to make people forget himslef, even if he's still PM .

[Democratic Hawk]

The French have never quite shaken off Dien Bien Phu Syndrome

Dave

[Michael Z]

What happened was that terrorists kidnapped Israeli citizens.  The Israeli government demanded their return.  The terrorists (who operate in places like Lebanon) refused to return the kidnapped Israeli's.  Israel used legitimate force to deal with the terrorist (insufficent force in my opinion).

Yeah, bombing a whole country (a hitherto secular Muslim democracy lest I add), including airports, roads, warehouses, schools, and completely destroying its entire infrastucture because of a small cell based in its southern regions is a VERY LEGITIMATE way of dealing with terrorism, and one that will not turn the entire population against the attacking country and thus pave the way for more future conflicts.

I mean, look. I once had an Israeli girlfriend. My initial country's history was marred by the Holocaust. I know what these people feel like. But there is defending yourself and then there's bombing the crap out of a country for virtually no reason whatsoever. I cast myself back to the IRA comparison I made earlier. If the British had bombed the living daylights out of Belfast back in the 70s or 80s, how do you think things would be now?

Oh, and insufficent?! What should they have done? Nuke the place?

[??????????]

I'm sure that France was against going into Iraq for moral reasons and is very.....oh wait, that's right, they were selling WEAPONS to the Iraqis and didn't want to be found out!

[Maastricht]

The French have never quite shaken off Dien Bien Phu Syndrome

Dave

Well, yes ... But the main cause of this trauma are the 2,240,000 lifes (soldiers + civilians) lost in less than 50 years during the 2WW and Algerie+Indochine Wars. For a very long time, there wasn't in the whole country a family where nobody has been wounded or killed in a war. I've recently been in holidays in the Alps region, in a little village of less than 100 inhabitants. I visited the war memorial. About twenty-five names were written for the 2WW. For some, 5 of the guys killed were of the same family. Some villages lost all their young people during those wars.

I'm sure that France was against going into Iraq for moral reasons and is very.....oh wait, that's right, they were selling WEAPONS to the Iraqis and didn't want to be found out!

It was never hided, Irak was a real supermarket for French companies between 1975 and 1989... Chirac has been PM two times during this period (1974-1976 and 1986-1988). He had a part of responsability but didn't recognized it. Of course he can be blamed. But aren't we talking of Lebanon ?

[CARLHAYDEN]

Third, the French government is headed by two sociopaths who hate the United States.  Both the Preisent of France, and its Premier are VERY EVIL, EVIL men who will stop at nothing in their hatred of the United States and their veneration of evil.

Speaking of hatred against certain countries...

Please reread.

The President of France and the Premier of that country, are evil and despicable. 

That does NOT make the country, or people thereof, evil and despicable.

It seems likely that de Vellepin days in government are numbered.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Are you kidding?  The conflict in the Middle East is the United States's fault?  It is certainly not the United States's fault, nor Israel's fault, nor Lebanon's fault, nor Hezbollah's fault, nor Iran's fault, nor anyone else's fault.  It is the offspring of deep religious tension caused by centuries of misunderstanding, scores of power-hungry religious officials, legions of misguided followers, and several unfortunate mistakes.  To try to pin the conflict on one country, let alone one not even in the region, is severely underestimating the true complexity of the Middle Eastern situation.

I didn't said the whole thing since 1947, I was just speaking of 2006's conflict... Both Israel and Hezbollah can be blamed for this, but I think it should be the same for USA ... Everybody knows Israel do follow Bush's orders : hasn't he unofficially authorized Israel to continue the war for three more weeks in mid-july ? Bush had the power to stop Tsahal's invasion. Of course Hezbollah would still have been a big problem if war ceased in mid july. But for the same result we had one useless month of war... Bush could have stop it.

First, welcome to the forum.

Well, thanks, but just check my profile : Date Registered:  September 18, 2004, 08:38:30 pm

You must be logged in to read this quote.

God, I wish my whole life should be that clear and simple ...

I don't think of having deferred on Israel the whole responsibility for this conflict, far from there. I just allow myself to express my surprise about  the hypocrisy of the current foreign policy of the USA towards Lebanon.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Sociopaths, OK But they do not hate the USA. And it's the same mistake people commit for 99% of French People. What we do not like is puritanism, ultra neo-conservatism. This way of thinking according to which God and the fatherland is what one must live for. Unfortunately, this description corresponds to Bush.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

American humour ?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Don't worry about it, he's rotting somewhere in Hotel Matignon, we havn't seen him on TV for about two months. This guy is trying to make people forget himslef, even if he's still PM .

Again, please note that I do not accuse the French people of hating the United States.  However, I do accuse Chirac and de Vellepin of hating the United States.