Child Labor Restriction Bill

[Democratic Hawk]

I seem to recall voting in favor of a similar, if not the same piece of legislation, back in the days of the Southeast Regional Assembly, so I can hardly vote any other way in the Senate. True it is restrictive but it's for all the right reasons. I, therefore, vote Aye on this Bill

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

It's a blatant attempt to put some senator's subjective preferences into law, without good reason. Pretty stupid.

Actually, it isn't. Senator MasterJedi introduced this Bill for the President. And as for 'subjective preferences', that is the kind of line I expect from Opebo not you

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

Jake made a good case.

VETO

Maybe so, but don't you have any confidence in your own case given the fact it's your Bill?

Still, given that you have seemingly gone full circle in the past on such issues as abortion and free trade, this veto doesn't, in the least bit, surprise me

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

I think it would be a whole lot easier if the Senate Rules, Regulations and Procedures were amended to allow any outstanding legislation from the previous Senate to be reintroduced in their existing state

By outstanding legislation, I am referring to what was actually on the floor at the time the Fourteenth Senate expired namely this Bill, together with the Wage Enforcement Bill, the Consolidated Criminal Justice Bill and the Copyright Reform Bill. I just think it would be a much more efficient way of conducting business around here

Nevertheless, if they have to be reintroduced then they have to be reintroduced. And they will take precedence. Not to mention the continuing saga of the Resolution on the Middle East Conflict, which has been on the floor of the Senate from around the same time Noah built his Ark

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

As the sponsor of this Bill, Senator MasterJedi, seconded by Senator Virginian87, has requested an override; therefore, I hereby open up the veto override vote on this bill. Please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

Aye

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

And again we see a horrible abuse of Senate rules for political means.

The President vetoed his own legislation and Senator MasterJedi duly requested an override within the given time frame

And given your behaviour during the last Senate, you are in no position to criticise. You either win the argument or you don't, and if you don't you jolly well get over it, rather than timewasting and wilfully obstructing because you can't get your own way

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

The President vetoed his own legislation and Senator MasterJedi duly requested an override within the given time frame

Bro, you're having a vote to override a veto, made in the last term, to a bill passed during the last term, and having Senators vote on the bill, three of whom weren't eligible to vote on the bill when it was up for final passage. Defend that, or shut your mouth.

This Bill was vetoed by the President on the 4th September 2006. Senator MasterJedi requested a veto override that very same day (i.e. within 72 hours). Request for the veto override granted

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

All I can do is refer to Article 5 of the OSPR Section 3: Rules on Veto Overrides:

1. If a piece of legislation is vetoed by the President, the sponsor of the bill must let the PPT know publicly on the Senate floor within seventy-two (72) hours of the veto being placed whether he wishes to have a vote to override the veto.  If he replies in the negative or fails to reply within the given time, the legislation will be withdrawn from the Senate floor.

This particular Bill was vetoed by the President on the 4th September 2006 . That very same day, Senator MasterJedi, as sponsor, gave notice that he would seek an override vote. This met the necessary 72 hour time limit

Therefore, as the newly elected PPT, I granted his request in accordance with the aforesaid Clause 1 of Section 3, Article 5 of the OSPR

It is my intention to count all votes cast as valid

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

I'll be forced to lodge a court case challenging your actions in that case.

Other than act in accordance with the OSPR, I don't see what else can be done. The President vetoed the Bill on the 4th September and Senator MasterJedi gave notice of wishing to seek an override well within the 72 hours time limit

As PPT, I'm acting impartially. If the override succeeds, it succeeds; if it fails, it fails. I can live with that and move forward, can you? My own opinion on the legislation is irrelevant. I actually voted in favor of it because I recall supporting the very same piece of legislations passed by the then Southeast Regional Assembly. And one thing I'm not is a hypocrite

A Senator made a request for an override, furthermore it was seconded, which I granted because it, to the best of my knowledge, is permissable under the OSPR. I've also read the Constitution and found nothing that forbids my decision

I suspect I was overwhelmingly elected as PPT because the Senate trusts me to act in an even-handed manner, irrespective of my own personal opinions

BTW, something I should have made perfectly clear earlier today, in future, you communicate with me with civility or not at all. I don't take too kindly to being told to "shut my mouth". And if I hit a raw nerve beforehand, then, given your disgraceful tactics in the last Senate, it was no more than what you deserved. You can either be a good senator or a bad one, take your pick

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

When was this legislation vetoed by the President and when did Senator MasterJedi request that a veto override be taken? Answer: 4th September 2006

On the 30th August, Senator MasterJedi, then PPT, announced that the Bill had enough votes to pass giving senators 24 hours notice to change their votes. However, he gave public notice that he had to take leave of absence and he did not return until 2nd September 2006. On his return, he, as Dean of the Senate and bearning in mind the absence of the Vice President, saw fit to present the Bill to the President for his signature. The Bill having secured 7 votes in favor, 2 against, with 0 abstentions. So, in effect, the Bill had been legitimately all done and dusted before the end of the Fourteenth Senate, which expired noon Eastern on the 1st September 2006

The President vetoed the Bill on the 4th September 2006 and Senator MasterJedi gave due notice (i.e. within the 72 hours as stipulated by the OSPR) that he would seek a veto override, which I granted

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

3. we're trying to mish mash these options together by introducing a bill directly to the floor in its final state, something that Senate procedure doesn't allow.

While 1. is clearly not an option, 2., at least on the face of it, sounds like the correct procedure.

Speaking of 3, it is my intention to propose an amendment to the OSPR that would allow all legislation currently on the floor at the end of the one Senate term to remain on the floor in its final state for the new Senate term

If nothing else, it would a be a more efficient way of going about business. I have attempted to explain the background with regards to this Bill in the previous post. It is bearing this in mind, that I have granted the override

The President vetoed the Bill on the 4th September and Senator MasterJedi gave notice to request an override that very same day, which was well within the 72 hours time limit specified under Article 5, Section 3, Clause 1 of the OSPR

I have contacted Senator MasterJedi requesting that he contact me as a matter of urgency regarding this matter

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

The bill was not presented to the President until after the term had expired, meaning it should've gone into the expired legislation thread, just like the other bills. Case closed.

As I've said, I'm waiting to hear from the Senator as regards this matter

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

I have contacted Senator MasterJedi regarding this matter and I'm awaiting his reply

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

The Bill having secured 7 votes in favor, 2 against, with 0 abstentions. So, in effect, the Bill had been legitimately all done and dusted before the end of the Fourteenth Senate, which expired noon Eastern on the 1st September 2006

It's not legitimately all done and dusted until it's either signed by the President or passed over his veto.

It, seemingly, had passed the appropriate stage to be presented to the President before the end of the Fourteenth Senate and I'm trying to ascertain, whether it was on these grounds, that the Senator saw fit to present it to the President on his return, which was evidently after the Fourteenth Senate expired

The absence of a functioning Vice President did not help the situation and it's wrong that business should have to grind to a halt because of it. The Senator gave due leave of absence

I'm seriously minded, after all this carry-on, to propose an amendment to the OSPR that would permit all legislation on the floor of the previous Senate to be stay on the floor for the new Senate. Because, as things stand, its grossly inefficient. It isn't good enough

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

I'm seriously minded, after all this carry-on, to propose an amendment to the OSPR that would permit all legislation on the floor of the previous Senate to be stay on the floor for the new Senate. Because, as things, its grossly inefficient and it won't do!

'Hawk'

I can understand that*. But as of now, there seems to be no such legislation.

*well, in a case such as this one. But think of all eventualities, please. What about a vote that's still open, with the result unclear, when the term expires? Who gets to be allowed to vote?

I see no reason why new senators can't pick up from where the old ones left off, at whichever stage the legislation is at, provided they have taken their oath of office. This is an issue that can be readily debated by the Senate once I propose the changes I feel are necessary, in order, to make this place function more efficiently

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

It was answered above. The term expired before the bill was even presented to the president for his signature, meaning it goes into the expired legislation thread.

So technically there was no veto then either?

Be it the case that if Senator MasterJedi incorrectly presented the Bill to the President, it follows that it was inappropriate for the President to veto it

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

Senator Jake and the SoFA have both put forward the case that this is expired legislation and, therefore, should be reintroduced

I, however, granted the override on the grounds that Senator MasterJedi gave due notice to seek a veto override within 72 hours of the President vetoing this Bill; however, it is the opinion of Senator Jake and the SoFA that this was not permitted by the OSPR

Therefore, unless, Senator MasterJedi gives legitimate reason as to why I should allow this override to stand within the next 24 hours, I shall draw a line under this once and for all

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

First of all, I'd like to thank the Senator for his response

While, they is no doubt in my mind, under normal circumstances, my granting Senator MasterJedi's request for a veto override was legitimate under Article 5, Section 3, Clause 1 of the OSPR, these are not normal circumstances

It has become transparent that this Bill ought not to have been presented to the President and that he ought not to have responded

To all intents and purposes, the Child Labor Restriction Bill is expired legislation and will be treated as such. This veto override has been withdrawn and the Bill will be reintroduced

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

It has become transparent that this Bill ought not to have been presented to the President and that he ought not to have responded

Why is the buck being passed to me here?  I only responded to what I was given.  In hindsight, sure, I could have brought up concerns with the bill being passed after the Senate session ended.  Though it could be argued that, according to precedent, the voting period ends at the designated time regardless of whether the PPT posts so or not, because MasterJedi did not count a vote change by Jesus on the whaling bill because it was posted after the 24 hour period ended, but before Jedi had posted as such.  (Not that this is a precedent I am particularly comfortable with.)

Just making an observation. I'm not levelling any criticism. In hindsight, I wouldn't have allowed the veto override in the first instance. Still, I hope this matter is now resolved

It is my intention to propose an amendment to the OSPR soon, which if approved, would allow incomplete legislation on the floor of the Senate when it expires to be brought forward to the new Senate in its existing state. If nothing else, it would be a hell of lot more efficient than present. And there is a lot that can be said for efficiency

'Hawk'