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Author Topic: No Hitler  (Read 4272 times)
Michael Z
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« on: September 02, 2006, 01:57:49 pm »
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Let's assume Adolf Hitler is never annointed Chancellor of Germany. A coalition government between SPD and Zentrum and numerous other smaller parties (perhaps Freiland-Freigeld-Freitwirtschaft or the Bavarian Farmers' Union) manages to run the German republic until the mid-1930s or beyond. The economy recovers. Both the NSDAP and the KPD disappear in the electoral wilderness, ensuring that Germany does not succumb to extremism (whether from the right or the left).

So, no Hitler, no Nuremberg Laws, no WW2, no Holocaust, no Hiroshima/Nagasaki, no Cold War. Or is it? What would the world look like had Hitler never been German Chancellor and the NSDAP never gained power in the Reichstag? How different would things be?
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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2006, 02:16:48 pm »
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J. J.
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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2006, 02:47:43 pm »
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Stalin's still around.  I would be looking at Germany's relationship with Poland, in specific and eastern Europe and the Balkans in general.

In 1939-40, the Soviet Union invade Poland.  What is Germany's reaction?

Is there a rise of German nationalism in the Sudeten and West Prussia?

Is there a Stalin-Mussolini Pact regarding the Balkans?
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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2006, 04:31:59 pm »
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More than likely, Soviet communism woudl spread all over Europe.

A weak Germany would mean a Soveit invasion of Europe around 1945... from then one, who knows.
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« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2006, 05:48:31 pm »
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More than likely, Soviet communism woudl spread all over Europe.

A weak Germany would mean a Soveit invasion of Europe around 1945... from then one, who knows.

I can imagine the Soviet Union testng everyones patience in the early 40's. It would have made territorial demands, suh as Bessarabia from Romania and could have annexed or at the very least provoked the Baltic states. It would also eye up Polish territory it lost in 1920-21 and I can see the UK and France declaring war should the Soviet Union invade.
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« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2006, 08:24:31 pm »

Changes from OTL besides the obvious ones inside Germany.

1934: With No Hitler, Germany did not leave the League of Nations and thus the Sovet Union does not choose to join in 1934.

1936: Spanish Civil War breaks out on schedule.  While there will be a smaller Legión Cóndor involved in the fighting on the Nationalist side, it will not be German, but Polish instead.  There are also significant sized formations of Nationalist volunteers from Czechoslovakia and Austria, but only the Italians and the Poles have the official blessing of their governments.

1938: With an apparent Rydz/Mussolini Axis being built between Poland and Italy and concerns about Germany fading, an Anglo-Franco-German memorandum is signed.  The AFG memorandum calls fro a halt to firther construction of the Maginot Line and allows for Germany to undertake an expansion of its Army and to build an air force.  Germany starts to rearm, but not as preciptously as in OTL, and at least at first with Czech-built rather than home built equipment.  There is no Bf-109 in this timeline.

1939: Spanish Civil war finally comes to an end with the surrender of the last republican forces on September 1.  There will be no Winter War in Finland and Mussolini does not worry about annexing Albania at this time.

1940: Treaty of Rome signed.  It is an economic and military pact that includes Austria, Hungary, Italy, Spain, Poland, and Portugal.  Czechoslavkia and Swiitzerland have observers at the negotiations, but the Czechs don't trust the Poles and the Swiss are unwilling to abandon their traditional military neutrality, despite the fact that the treaty's provisions are mostly symbolic rather than real.  While never an official title, it quickly gains the unoffical name of the Catholic League.

1942: The Italian Consul in Zagreb is assassinated in March by a Serbian nationalist group which claims that the Italians are assisting Croatian terrorists.  Things escalate and by June the Catholic League and the Little Entente (Czecholslovakia, Romania, and Yugoslavia) are at war.  By winter, the Entente will have occupied eastern Hungary and the League northern and coastal Yugoslavia.

1943:  Chungking falls to Japanese and ROC-Nanking forces.  Bulgaria joins in the European War on the side of the Catholic League, hoping to regain Southern Dubroja (lost to Rumania in the Second Balkan War), but frustration over Polish performance in the war to date and thus a likely lack of post-war territorial gains leads the Poles to try their own version of the Schlieffen Plan by invading Bohmeia by crossing German Silesia.  The Germans declare War and worried about Catholic Aggression, Britain and France also join the War.  Spain and Portugal who hadn't been particulary active in the War quickly depart the League and thus fighting remians confined to Cental Europe. By August, it becomes clear that the League is losing and an armistice is arranged. The Allies arrange for a return of the border antebellum for the most part, with some minor territorial concessions being made to Germany and Yugolsavia by Poland and Italy respectively and the Italians being booted out of Albania.
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« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2006, 08:30:26 pm »

Stalin was too concentrated on internal enemies.  I can't see him taking the risk of a large war that might lead the Army to control of the Soviet Union instead of him.  Perhaps he would have involved the Soviets in the war I've described in my last post, but actually, I think he would have been more likely to have turned his attention east rather than west, as he would be less likely to provoke Anglo-French intervention in a war against Japan than a war against his European neighbors, and he could keep winning generals safely away from Moscow.
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« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2006, 09:39:47 pm »
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Pretty good, Ernest, but the Japanese are going to need resources and have to strike North or South if they are going to continue the war.  I don't see there being no oil embargo in this TL.
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« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2006, 10:12:55 pm »

But with Europe and the United States not gearing up as intently for war as in OTL and no embargo, Japan will be able to buy the resources they need as long as the war only involves China and if the Soviet Union attacks, then they probably get support from the British and/or the French.  The embargo was as much to divert resources to the Allied war effort as it was to punish the Japanese.
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« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2006, 10:21:20 pm »
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What makes anyone think that a non-Nazi Germany is a disarmed Germany?

There were covert effort at rearmament from the early 1920's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmacht

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichswehr

With the world situation in the 1930's and 40's, I think there would have been international support for rearmament.
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J. J.

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Michael Z
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« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2006, 02:39:36 pm »
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So either way, things would have been seriously messed up. Now there's a depressing thought.
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Colin
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« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2006, 04:04:15 pm »
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But with Europe and the United States not gearing up as intently for war as in OTL and no embargo, Japan will be able to buy the resources they need as long as the war only involves China and if the Soviet Union attacks, then they probably get support from the British and/or the French.  The embargo was as much to divert resources to the Allied war effort as it was to punish the Japanese.

I would have to agree with you on the issue of Soviet involvement in external affairs Ernest. It would be highly unlikely and quite disasterous for Stalin. Until he was attacked by Hitler in 1941 and for the entire history of the Soviet Union it had been constantly looking in on internal security/consolidation of power, and developing the Soviet state rather than the active expansion of Communism. Stalin actually let Comintern faltering during his time as Soviet Premier because he was more concerned about forming Communism into a Russian nationalism of a sort.

I also personally believe that it was quite possible that either the KPD or an NSDAP under a leader different from Hitler would have gained power at some point. Weimar German was at a precipace that it could not avert, IMHO. Either it would have gone Communist sometime during the thirties or an alternate NSDAP under an alternate leader, and there are plenty of candidates, would have come to power. Whether they would have been as deadly and disasterous as Hitler is another question altogether.
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« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2007, 01:12:25 am »
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No Israel.
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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2007, 05:48:41 am »
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Let's assume Adolf Hitler is never annointed Chancellor of Germany.
Von Schleicher turns out almost as bad a dictator.
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A coalition government between SPD and Zentrum and numerous other smaller parties (perhaps Freiland-Freigeld-Freitwirtschaft or the Bavarian Farmers' Union) manages to run the German republic until the mid-1930s or beyond.
Ah, but that's different. You're aware that real-life constitutional government in Germany ended in 1930, not 1933?
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The economy recovers.
Hard to see that without a Hitler-style massive reamarmament program (illegal under the terms of the Versailles treaty).
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Both the NSDAP
Already beginning to by late 1932
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and the KPD disappear in the electoral wilderness, ensuring that Germany does not succumb to extremism (whether from the right or the left).
Hmmm... maybe if there'd been better news reporting about Stalin's anticommunist witchhunts... otherwise, hard to imagine without WW II...
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« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2007, 06:31:32 pm »
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Gabu
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« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2007, 12:33:45 pm »
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Command & Conquer: Red Alert

'Making History', by Stephen Fry

But that doesn't have a sexy commando lady with big boobs.
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« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2007, 02:41:17 pm »
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Command & Conquer: Red Alert

'Making History', by Stephen Fry

But that doesn't have a sexy commando lady with big boobs.

True, but it does have depictions of a gay love affair....... Oh.
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