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Frodo
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« on: September 05, 2006, 04:13:31 pm »
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Democrats push for own religious voice

By JIM KUHNHENN
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER


WASHINGTON -- Thirteen years ago, David Wilhelm, then chairman of the Democratic Party, told the conservative Christian Coalition that good Christians could belong to either major political party.

He was hissed.

Today, Wilhelm wants to spread that message to a different audience - Democrats. He's hoping for a better response.

With a leading poll showing only one in four Americans viewing the Democratic Party as friendly to religion, Wilhelm and a broad-based group of Christian Democratic activists are starting an Internet effort to organize religious voters whose views might be compatible with Democrats.

The site, http://www.FaithfulDemocrats.com, will go online Tuesday and showcase theologians, party strategists, political leaders and bloggers in hopes of conducting a national discussion on politics and faith.

"It struck me as strange that people whose political world is motivated by faith had to be Republican. Democrats need to be on the playing field," Wilhelm said.

He said the site will give religious Democrats "the moral support and some language they can use."

The nonprofit Web venture was conceived by Wilhelm and Chicago-based Democratic activist Jesse Lava. Tennessee state Sen. Roy Herron, a former minister, and Rev. Romal Tune, founder of the Washington D.C.-based Clergy Strategic Alliances, are co-chairmen.

By venturing into the unrestricted and freewheeling world of the Internet, however, FaithfulDemocrats are just as likely to find an full-throated blowback as an amen chorus.

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., caused a furor in the liberal blogosphere this summer when he warned liberals and progressives in a speech that "we cannot abandon the field of religious discourse."

The Web site and its place as an alternative to Christian conservatism comes as churchgoing voters who consider themselves politically liberal have tried to link their religious values to causes such as social justice, opposition to the Iraq war and the environment.

Over the last 30 years, the GOP has found common ground among traditional pro-business, anti-tax Republicans, small government advocates and social conservatives. Democrats, on the other hand, have been influenced by a secular, liberal bloc that advocates separation of church and state. The party's disparate groups have had more trouble finding a single voice.

A poll by the Pew Research Center found that the proportion of Americans who considered the Republican Party friendly to religion dropped from 55 percent last year to 47 percent this year. But that is still significantly higher than the 26 percent who regard Democrats as friendly to religion.

An effort such as FaithfulDemocrats is an "example of the evolution of this debate," said John Green, an expert on religious voters and a senior fellow at the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. "It could be very well be that things like this could turn that image around."

FaithfulDemocrats' debut on the Internet features articles such as "What's wrong with the Religious Right" and "Religious values, the higher ground."
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MODU
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2006, 04:26:09 pm »
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When you consider over 75% of the nation identifies as "Christian" and the Democrats have the larger proportion of the voting public, you have to assume that at least 50% of the Democrats are "Christian."  The problem is many of the hot topic campaign issues the Democratic Party promotes run against Christian beliefs, so it is hard for them to promote a religious voice.  They can do it by moderating the party tone, allowing individual candidates within the party campaign a more liberal/hard-line position (which means only a smaller part of the population might be turned off by the party message).

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DownWithTheLeft
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2006, 04:56:49 pm »
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Many Democrats are Christians, but they have this "I'm a Christian, so is my neighbor, but that one guy down the street isn't, so everyone has to pretend no one is Christian attitude."  If Democrats became pro-life, pro-public display of religion, they would do a helluva lot better.

This I'm a Christian an I believe abortion is wrong, but your not so you can have it on-demand thinking is what is bringing the party down.
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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2006, 05:12:35 pm »
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Many Democrats are Christians, but they have this "I'm a Christian, so is my neighbor, but that one guy down the street isn't, so everyone has to pretend no one is Christian attitude." 

No.  Democrats would say, let's not stick a large cross on our lawn that says "Jesus is THE GREATEST" and tell that non-Christian neighbor that Christianity is the best religion.  It is called being polite and courteous, something I'm sure you have no experience with.  You can be a Christian and go to Church and believe in all the Christian prinicples, while not blaring it out to everyone who passes by, especially people who'd be offended by it.
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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2006, 05:14:37 pm »
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Many Democrats are Christians, but they have this "I'm a Christian, so is my neighbor, but that one guy down the street isn't, so everyone has to pretend no one is Christian attitude." 

No.  Democrats would say, let's not stick a large cross on our lawn that says "Jesus is THE GREATEST" and tell that non-Christian neighbor that Christianity is the best religion.  It is called being polite and courteous, something I'm sure you have no experience with.  You can be a Christian and go to Church and believe in all the Christian prinicples, while not blaring it out to everyone who passes by, especially people who'd be offended by it.

What if I'm offended to my town won't put a nativity scene?  No one sees that side of it.  Hell I decorate my house to a ridiculous extreme, but there are some people who can't afford to display big elaborate scenes and would love to see the town put up.  But because a few token Athesists are upset, everyone else must suffer.

Here is the liberals motto:
"Atheists come first"
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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2006, 05:24:03 pm »
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The issue isn't just indentification.

The majority of Christians have beliefs and opinions which run again Christian principles. The actual hardline christians are not the majority - even though they make enough noise. So to start selling its soul would be wrong.

The majority of Americans are pro-choice, more importantly women by about 65-35% split are pro-choice (check the polls - it jumps around)... given how good women have been to the Reps in 2002 and 2004 elections they're not going to touch it - and only give lip service to appease the extreme right-wing.

The brand of christianity advocated by down and others (yes there are different brands... not doubt you believe yours is the one true faith) is strong in the south - where is always has been. When the Dems turned toward social liberalism and the Reps were gutted after Watergate - the Reps took the bull by the horns and slowly started to force out the Rockefeller republicans. The book "What the Matter With Kansas" goes into this issue extremely well.
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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2006, 05:36:38 pm »
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Many Democrats are Christians, but they have this "I'm a Christian, so is my neighbor, but that one guy down the street isn't, so everyone has to pretend no one is Christian attitude." 

No.  Democrats would say, let's not stick a large cross on our lawn that says "Jesus is THE GREATEST" and tell that non-Christian neighbor that Christianity is the best religion.  It is called being polite and courteous, something I'm sure you have no experience with.  You can be a Christian and go to Church and believe in all the Christian prinicples, while not blaring it out to everyone who passes by, especially people who'd be offended by it.

What if I'm offended to my town won't put a nativity scene?  No one sees that side of it.  Hell I decorate my house to a ridiculous extreme, but there are some people who can't afford to display big elaborate scenes and would love to see the town put up.  But because a few token Athesists are upset, everyone else must suffer.

Here is the liberals motto:
"Atheists come first"

No.  Neutral is not atheism.  Governments should not be getting entangled in religion.  Religion is too messy, and it was the intention of the founders to separate government from religion.  Not to ban religion in anyway, but to not choose to favor any religion over another.  If someone wants Christma decorations for private use and can't afford them they can use two options.
1)Charity
2)If you supported this so much, maybe your government could offer money directly to them so they can buy they're own private decorations
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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2006, 05:47:32 pm »
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He said the site will give religious Democrats "the moral support and some language they can use."

You can’t fool people into believing you stand for Christian principles if you continuously:

1) mock Faith-Based Initiatives while forcing people, through taxes, to provide for the faceless poor (by faceless I mean poor people that you can’t witness their circumstances to ensure they’re not ripping you off)…instead of it being an act of charity.  Jesus never forced people to provide for the poor, rather he appealed to their hearts and left it up to the individual’s free will.  Also, the New Testament gives this rule “if a man is not willing to work, he will not eat”.

2) treat the unborn as parasites.

3) treat perversion as a respectable lifestyle.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2006, 05:50:48 pm by jmfcst »Logged

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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2006, 05:57:29 pm »
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I am a Christian, and I do not believe it was the founding father's purpose to keep Government and Religion completely separate.  It will never be separated, because even the US Constitution as they wrote it was found on principles from the Bible, which is God's Holy Word.  Should they be completely intertwined, no, but to shun any promotions of Christianity on public property is to deny that there is a God and it will eventually be judged by God Himself.

The Bible says "Blessed is the nation who's God is the Lord".

I'm not trying to preach here, but I am trying to advocate and promote Christianity.  Christians cannot be silent in public about their beliefs.  Our job as Christians is to spread the Gospel by telling other's about Jesus Christ and His death on the cross for all mankind and resurrection.  We are not to force it down anyone's throat, for Christ Himself never forced Himself down anyone's throat, but we are to at least give them the choice and let them decide for themselves what they want to do with it.  Silence is a grave sin, and it is just as bad as first degree homicide.  One sin (a little white lie) is the same as another sin (first degree murder).

Like I always say, it doesn't matter whether you miss heaven by half an inch or a million miles, the point is, you still missed it.

Thats enough of my ranting, but I had to get it out.
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« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2006, 07:50:03 pm »
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I am a Christian, and I do not believe it was the founding father's purpose to keep Government and Religion completely separate.  It will never be separated, because even the US Constitution as they wrote it was found on principles from the Bible, which is God's Holy Word.  Should they be completely intertwined, no, but to shun any promotions of Christianity on public property is to deny that there is a God and it will eventually be judged by God Himself.

The Bible says "Blessed is the nation who's God is the Lord".

I'm not trying to preach here, but I am trying to advocate and promote Christianity.  Christians cannot be silent in public about their beliefs.  Our job as Christians is to spread the Gospel by telling other's about Jesus Christ and His death on the cross for all mankind and resurrection.  We are not to force it down anyone's throat, for Christ Himself never forced Himself down anyone's throat, but we are to at least give them the choice and let them decide for themselves what they want to do with it.  Silence is a grave sin, and it is just as bad as first degree homicide.  One sin (a little white lie) is the same as another sin (first degree murder).

Like I always say, it doesn't matter whether you miss heaven by half an inch or a million miles, the point is, you still missed it.

Thats enough of my ranting, but I had to get it out.

If the Democratic party believed as you do, they would win a helluva lot more elections.  After that rant, wouldn't you like to come and join the Republican party?  We'd love to have people who feel like you do, it helps us win elections
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« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2006, 07:56:19 pm »
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You would expect the Dems to sell out their values just to win elections? You would respect that.?
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« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2006, 08:22:20 pm »
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Atheists come before christians or other scum.
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« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2006, 08:52:24 pm »
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You would expect the Dems to sell out their values just to win elections? You would respect that.?

When you are a party that hates religiion and only a small portion of the country is atheist, you might want to consider changing your opinions

That's like saying, "You expect Hitler to sell out his values and stop killing Jews to win elections? Would you respect that?"
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« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2006, 09:35:31 pm »
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I am a Christian, and I do not believe it was the founding father's purpose to keep Government and Religion completely separate.  It will never be separated, because even the US Constitution as they wrote it was found on principles from the Bible, which is God's Holy Word.  Should they be completely intertwined, no, but to shun any promotions of Christianity on public property is to deny that there is a God and it will eventually be judged by God Himself.

The Bible says "Blessed is the nation who's God is the Lord".

I'm not trying to preach here, but I am trying to advocate and promote Christianity.  Christians cannot be silent in public about their beliefs.  Our job as Christians is to spread the Gospel by telling other's about Jesus Christ and His death on the cross for all mankind and resurrection.  We are not to force it down anyone's throat, for Christ Himself never forced Himself down anyone's throat, but we are to at least give them the choice and let them decide for themselves what they want to do with it.  Silence is a grave sin, and it is just as bad as first degree homicide.  One sin (a little white lie) is the same as another sin (first degree murder).

Like I always say, it doesn't matter whether you miss heaven by half an inch or a million miles, the point is, you still missed it.

Thats enough of my ranting, but I had to get it out.

If the Democratic party believed as you do, they would win a helluva lot more elections.  After that rant, wouldn't you like to come and join the Republican party?  We'd love to have people who feel like you do, it helps us win elections

I am actually a registered Republican because socially I am conservative, but economically, I am just to the left of center as is evident by my Political Matrix score.  Thats why I have a Democratic logo as my avatar.  Seriously, though, I am thinking of switching my avatar back to the Republican party, though I will vote for both parties in the November election.
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« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2006, 09:40:54 pm »
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You would expect the Dems to sell out their values just to win elections? You would respect that.?

When you are a party that hates religiion and only a small portion of the country is atheist, you might want to consider changing your opinions

That's like saying, "You expect Hitler to sell out his values and stop killing Jews to win elections? Would you respect that?"

That is typical of you. You make the judgement that because Democrats as a whole do not conform to your idea of christianity and do things which do not conform with your PERSONAL values - then you make ridiculous generalisations like "party that hates religion". You are unable to make the distinction between atheism and secularism.

Democrats and liberals do not HATE religion - I personally have not objections to nativity scenes or christmas plays - the US is 75% Christian so that should be respected - having said that - I have problems when a viewpoint which is held by a minority of christians - and a minority of Americans is used as the "Christian" or "American" way simply because you lot shout louder.
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« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2006, 09:46:31 pm »
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The Bible says "Blessed is the nation who's God is the Lord".

I liked your post, but I have to disagree with your use of that verse...here is whole verse:

Psa 33:12 "Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people he chose for his inheritance."

That is a reference to Israel, not the United States.
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« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2006, 10:15:54 pm »
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He said the site will give religious Democrats "the moral support and some language they can use."

You can’t fool people into believing you stand for Christian principles if you continuously:

1) mock Faith-Based Initiatives while forcing people, through taxes, to provide for the faceless poor (by faceless I mean poor people that you can’t witness their circumstances to ensure they’re not ripping you off)…instead of it being an act of charity.  Jesus never forced people to provide for the poor, rather he appealed to their hearts and left it up to the individual’s free will.  Also, the New Testament gives this rule “if a man is not willing to work, he will not eat”.

While you are obviously entirely ignorant of how the economic heirarchy under which you labour works, worker, you are also filled with the most ridiculous hubris!  Pathetic.  Are you not aware that there is a large class which does not work, who 'eat' the cream of society's production?  These are the owners, you poor irrational creature, and everything is done for them.

Quote
2) treat the unborn as parasites.

They are technically parasites, jmfcst - certainly more so than the poor you pillory.

Quote
3) treat perversion as a respectable lifestyle.

Your use of the term 'respectable', is a step in the right direction and I applaud you for it.  After all there are so few glimmers of reason in the mind of a religious such as yourself.  'Respectability' implies popularity, as in the majority of people, or at least the people who matter, in society approve.  This is very different from your usual laughable 'objective morality' claims.
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« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2006, 10:27:58 pm »
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The Bible says "Blessed is the nation who's God is the Lord".

I liked your post, but I have to disagree with your use of that verse...here is whole verse:

Psa 33:12 "Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people he chose for his inheritance."

That is a reference to Israel, not the United States.

I believe the "chosen people" are Christians all over the world not just one country with political borders.  The Bible says even the physical country of Israel will be destroyed when the new earth is created (Rev 21).  Again, its not political borders that define who God's chosen people are, rather whether they have accepted and called on Christ.  However, I do believe that Israel will never be defeated.  Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, and the entire Arab community cannot and will not defeat Israel no matter what they try.
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« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2006, 11:10:39 pm »
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I believe the "chosen people" are Christians all over the world not just one country with political borders.  The Bible says even the physical country of Israel will be destroyed when the new earth is created (Rev 21).  Again, its not political borders that define who God's chosen people are, rather whether they have accepted and called on Christ.  However, I do believe that Israel will never be defeated.  Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, and the entire Arab community cannot and will not defeat Israel no matter what they try.

I agree citizenship into spiritual Israel is extended to Christians by way of belief in the Jewish Messiah, Jesus. 

And I agree that Christianity is a spiritual nation without boarders…which is exactly why I took issue with your use of Psa 33:12 in reference to the United States.  Even if all Americans were devoted to Christ, the United States is a physical nation with boarders, but there is only ONE physical nation whose God is the LORD, and that nation is Israel.  Israel is the ONLY physical nation set apart by God.  God did NOT set the United States apart.  Israel shares this distinction with no one:

Rom 3:1  “What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.”

Rom 9:3-5 “For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised!Amen.”

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The Bible says even the physical country of Israel will be destroyed when the new earth is created (Rev 21).

Nowhere in Rev 21 does it say the nation Israel will be destroyed.  It says the earth will be destroyed and recreated with a New Jerusalem at its center.  But the nations themselves will not be destroyed.  They may have their political power structures dashed to pieces by Jesus, but the nations themselves are said to exist in the final eternal situation:

"The nations will walk by [the New Jerusalem’s] light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it…. The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it." (Rev 21:24,26)

“On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.” Rev 22:2

---

That being said, please note that I agree with the thrust of your post – that America needs to follow Christ.  I simply believe you are pulling Psa 33:12 out of context in a way that could be interpreted as trying to steal Israel’s unique distinction, even though I know that is not your intention.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2006, 11:12:20 pm by jmfcst »Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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