Executions of 3 Christian militants sparks violence in Indonesia

[John Dibble]

http://news.bostonherald.com/international/view.bg?articleid=158809

Executions of 3 Christian militants sparks violence in Indonesia
By Associated Press
Friday, September 22, 2006 - Updated: 07:45 AM EST

PALU, Indonesia - Christian mobs torched cars, blockaded roads and looted Muslim-owned shops in violence touched off by Friday’s executions of three Roman Catholics convicted of instigating attacks on Muslims.
 
     Some 200 inmates escaped after mobs assaulted a jail in the town of Atambua, sending guards fleeing to the nearby jungle. By midday only 20 had been recaptured, deputy national police chief Lt. Gen. Adang Dorodjatun said, calling on the others to turn themselves in.
 
     And on the island of Flores, the executed men’s birthplace, machete-wielding mobs ran through the streets Friday, sending women and children running in panic, police and witnesses said.

     Police and media reports said at least five people were hurt, including a prosecutor who was hospitalized with stab wounds.
 
     Vice President Jusuf Kalla appealed for calm, saying the deaths of the three men had nothing to do with religion.
 
     “It’s a matter of law,” he told reporters in the capital Jakarta. “If the people resent the law, we are doomed.”
 
     Fabianus Tibo, 60, Marinus Riwu, 48, and Dominggus da Silva, 42, were found guilty of leading a Christian militia that launched a series of attacks on Muslims in May 2000 that left at least 70 people dead.
 
     Human rights workers say the men’s 2001 trial was a sham, and that while it was possible the men took part in some of the violence, they almost certainly were not the leaders.
 
     The men were taken before the firing squad at 12:15 a.m. (2:15 p.m. EDT Thursday), said a senior police officer who asked not to be identified because he was not authorized to speak to the media. Family members later said they had received confirmation of the deaths.
 
     Palu, where the executions took place, was largely calm, with thousands of police standing on street corners and guarding markets and churches. But violence flared in the Sulawesi villages of Tentena and Lage, where hundreds of Christians rampaged after learning of the deaths.
 
     Thousands also rallied in the eastern province of East Nusatenggara, home to many Roman Catholics, blockading roads and setting fire to government buildings, including a courthouse and a prosecutor’s office.
 
     Some 200 prisoners escaped in the town of Atambua, and only 20 had been recaptured by mid-afternoon, deputy national police chief Lt. Gen. Adang Dorodjatun said, calling on the others to turn themselves in.

     In carrying out the death sentence, Indonesia ignored an appeal last month by Pope Benedict XVI to spare the men. A Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, told the Italian news agency ANSA that news of the execution “was very sad and painful.”
 
     The European Union also criticized the executions; capital punishment is banned in the 25-member bloc.
 
     “The presidency of the European Union has learned with disappointment that despite numerous expressions of concern by the EU to the Indonesian authorities, Indonesia has carried out executions in Central Sulawesi,” said a statement issued Friday by Finland, which currently holds the EU presidency.

      The case against the three had heightened tensions in the world’s most populous Muslim nation and raised questions about the role religion played in punishing those allegedly behind the violence that swept Sulawesi province from 1998 to 2002, killing more than 1,000 people of both religions. Only a handful of Muslims were convicted, all for 15 years in prison or less.
 
     The men told relatives and a priest during final prayers at their jail Thursday that they were innocent but ready to die.
 
     Tibo’s son, Robert, told Christian followers early Friday that his father “begged us not to be angry, not to seek revenge.”

  “He asked us to forgive those who did this to him. ’God blesses all of us,’ he said.
 
     The executions came amid an outcry in many Muslim nations about comments made by the pope on Islam. The pontiff last week cited the words of a Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad as “evil and inhuman.” He has since said he was “deeply sorry” about the reactions to his remarks and that they did not reflect his own opinions.
 
     The condemned men had said they hoped investigations into the clashes would continue, noting that they had provided authorities with the names of 16 Christians who allegedly provoked some of the worst bloodshed.
 
     The government says its probe is complete.
 
     “It’s useless for me to say anything now,” said Tibo’s son early Friday. “The government never listened to him when he was alive. They ignored everything.”
 
     Human rights activists said Muslim hardliners gathered at the court during the hearings, likely intimidating judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys and witnesses.
 
     “The men’s lawyers received death threats, including a bomb planted at one lawyer’s house and demonstrators armed with stones outside the courthouse demanded that the three be sentenced to death,” said Isabelle Cartron of London-based Amnesty International.
 
     Indonesia is a secular nation with the world’s largest number of Muslims, about 190 million. In Sulawesi and several other eastern regions, Christian and Muslim populations are roughly equal.
 
     Though violence in Sulawesi largely ended with the signing of a peace deal in 2002, there have been isolated incidents of violence since then, most blamed on Islamic militants.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I am assuming your intent is to prove Christians as violent as Muslims.  But your example is of a country that has areas divided between Muslims and Christians, much like Nigeria.  So you may want to google Nigeria if you want to find examples of Christians slaughtering Muslims.

[John Dibble]

I am assuming your intent is to prove Christians as violent as Muslims.  But your example is of a country that has areas divided between Muslims and Christians, much like Nigeria.  So you may want to google Nigeria if you want to find examples of Christians slaughtering Muslims.

No, my intent was to show that Christians can be violent and hate filled as well. I try my best to avoid prejudice. I don't believe either group is inherently hateful or violent, but I do believe that both groups are equally capable of it given the right circumstances. You however seem to believe otherwise and demonize the Muslims while being apologistic for violence in your own religion. What exactly is your excuse for this? Is the execution of fellow Christians an excuse for Christians to loot and riot now? To burn down the prosecutors home and throw rocks at the police?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I am assuming your intent is to prove Christians as violent as Muslims.  But your example is of a country that has areas divided between Muslims and Christians, much like Nigeria.  So you may want to google Nigeria if you want to find examples of Christians slaughtering Muslims.

No, my intent was to show that Christians can be violent and hate filled as well. I try my best to avoid prejudice. I don't believe either group is inherently hateful or violent, but I do believe that both groups are equally capable of it given the right circumstances. You however seem to believe otherwise and demonize the Muslims while being apologistic for violence in your own religion. What exactly is your excuse for this? Is the execution of fellow Christians an excuse for Christians to loot and riot now? To burn down the prosecutors home and throw rocks at the police?

I am not excusing any Christian violence, unless it is in self defense, which in this case doesn't appear to be.

Nor would I excuse Christians in 30 different Christian countries executing former Christians every single Friday.

You are picking an example of a local Christian case and trying to equate it to a global Muslim problem.

But the whole time you are ignoring the fact that while it is wise and good-hearted to try to solve the social-economic ills of the middle-east, the aggression of the Muslim against Israel will not wait for your 12 step program to make a meaningful difference geopolitically. 

You will help individuals, but you won't stop the mob.  It is much like witnessing to Mormons: you may save a few, but you are not going to stop the train. (not to be confused with my other train analogies )

[John Dibble]

You are picking an example of a local Christian case and trying to equate it to a global Muslim problem.

No I'm not. I stated my intentions quite clearly in my last post. You stated that you don't know of any Christian groups that hate Muslims in another thread, or something very close, correct? Well, here you go - a group of Christians that clearly seem to hate Muslims. Again, here's what I said.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[WMS]

     Human rights workers say the men’s 2001 trial was a sham, and that while it was possible the men took part in some of the violence, they almost certainly were not the leaders.
...
      The case against the three had heightened tensions in the world’s most populous Muslim nation and raised questions about the role religion played in punishing those allegedly behind the violence that swept Sulawesi province from 1998 to 2002, killing more than 1,000 people of both religions. Only a handful of Muslims were convicted, all for 15 years in prison or less.
...
     Human rights activists said Muslim hardliners gathered at the court during the hearings, likely intimidating judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys and witnesses.
 
     “The men’s lawyers received death threats, including a bomb planted at one lawyer’s house and demonstrators armed with stones outside the courthouse demanded that the three be sentenced to death,” said Isabelle Cartron of London-based Amnesty International.

Dibble, I think you are ignoring these parts if your purpose was to "show that Christians can be violent and hate filled as well".

There was not equal treatment of Christians and Muslims under Indonesian law! That might just, ya know, have something to do with this?

And let's see...didn't the freaking head of the Jemaah Islamiyah - you know, the ones who killed 202 people in Bali? - get a whopping 2 years in prison?

Indonesia brought this trouble on itself...

[John Dibble]

     Human rights workers say the men’s 2001 trial was a sham, and that while it was possible the men took part in some of the violence, they almost certainly were not the leaders.
...
      The case against the three had heightened tensions in the world’s most populous Muslim nation and raised questions about the role religion played in punishing those allegedly behind the violence that swept Sulawesi province from 1998 to 2002, killing more than 1,000 people of both religions. Only a handful of Muslims were convicted, all for 15 years in prison or less.
...
     Human rights activists said Muslim hardliners gathered at the court during the hearings, likely intimidating judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys and witnesses.
 
     “The men’s lawyers received death threats, including a bomb planted at one lawyer’s house and demonstrators armed with stones outside the courthouse demanded that the three be sentenced to death,” said Isabelle Cartron of London-based Amnesty International.

Dibble, I think you are ignoring these parts if your purpose was to "show that Christians can be violent and hate filled as well".

There was not equal treatment of Christians and Muslims under Indonesian law! That might just, ya know, have something to do with this?

And let's see...didn't the freaking head of the Jemaah Islamiyah - you know, the ones who killed 202 people in Bali? - get a whopping 2 years in prison?

Indonesia brought this trouble on itself...

Uhm, so looting Muslim-owned stores and burning down the prosecutors house are not hate-motivated actions? Don't get me wrong - I'm not anti-Christian and I'm not saying such trouble shouldn't be expected from unfair treatment like this, but many of the actions that resulted from it stem from hate. I'm not even saying that the hate is necessarily unjustified. The notion that Christians never hate however is clearly not true. They're no more or less human than anyone else after all.

The most unfortunate part of these actions is that it's not going to produce positive results - it's only going to breed more hatred from the other side, which will likely result in actions that will breed more hatred among the Indonesian Christian population, and the cycle will continue until one side is destroyed or cooler heads prevail.

[minionofmidas]

East Nusa Tenggara, where these people are from is about 80% Christian, plus a sizeable animist population on Sumba. It's less than 10% Muslim.

I'm not sure about Central Sulawesi, other than that it has above average (Indonesian average = 9%) Christians, but North Sulawesi was split in 2000 into a 60-odd% Christian province and a 90-odd% Muslim province (called Gorontalo).

[WMS]

     Human rights workers say the men’s 2001 trial was a sham, and that while it was possible the men took part in some of the violence, they almost certainly were not the leaders.
...
      The case against the three had heightened tensions in the world’s most populous Muslim nation and raised questions about the role religion played in punishing those allegedly behind the violence that swept Sulawesi province from 1998 to 2002, killing more than 1,000 people of both religions. Only a handful of Muslims were convicted, all for 15 years in prison or less.
...
     Human rights activists said Muslim hardliners gathered at the court during the hearings, likely intimidating judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys and witnesses.
 
     “The men’s lawyers received death threats, including a bomb planted at one lawyer’s house and demonstrators armed with stones outside the courthouse demanded that the three be sentenced to death,” said Isabelle Cartron of London-based Amnesty International.

Dibble, I think you are ignoring these parts if your purpose was to "show that Christians can be violent and hate filled as well".

There was not equal treatment of Christians and Muslims under Indonesian law! That might just, ya know, have something to do with this?

And let's see...didn't the freaking head of the Jemaah Islamiyah - you know, the ones who killed 202 people in Bali? - get a whopping 2 years in prison?

Indonesia brought this trouble on itself...

Uhm, so looting Muslim-owned stores and burning down the prosecutors house are not hate-motivated actions? Don't get me wrong - I'm not anti-Christian and I'm not saying such trouble shouldn't be expected from unfair treatment like this, but many of the actions that resulted from it stem from hate. I'm not even saying that the hate is necessarily unjustified. The notion that Christians never hate however is clearly not true. They're no more or less human than anyone else after all.

The most unfortunate part of these actions is that it's not going to produce positive results - it's only going to breed more hatred from the other side, which will likely result in actions that will breed more hatred among the Indonesian Christian population, and the cycle will continue until one side is destroyed or cooler heads prevail.

The point I was making is that this is happening because of unfair treatment of the minority Christians in Indonesia. While these riots are, indeed, acts of anger and even hatred, I would again say that they were brought on by acts of the Indonesian Muslim majority.

The bolded part in your statement was probably meant for jmfcst, but since I've never made that claim I see no need to bother with it.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The point I was making is that this is happening because of unfair treatment of the minority Christians in Indonesia. While these riots are, indeed, acts of anger and even hatred, I would again say that they were brought on by acts of the Indonesian Muslim majority.

The bolded part in your statement was probably meant for jmfcst, but since I've never made that claim I see no need to bother with it.

Yeah, he is tring to paint Christianity as being equivalent to Islam in regard to violence.  I pointed him towards Nigeria.  He should also google Constantine for an example of a Christian tyrant.

But, in the end, it isn't going to help deal the following:

"The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land."

"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map."

"A point where the annihilation of the Zionist regime will come."

"The Islamic umma (community) will not allow its historic enemy to live in its heartland...[looking to an ] historic war between the oppressor and the world of Islam".

"We should not settle for a piece of land."

Mohammad Sadeq Hosseini, an expert on Middle Eastern affairs: "Ahmadinejad has clearly declared the doctrine of his government. By these comments, Ahmadinejad is committing himself to those goals."

[John Dibble]

The point I was making is that this is happening because of unfair treatment of the minority Christians in Indonesia. While these riots are, indeed, acts of anger and even hatred, I would again say that they were brought on by acts of the Indonesian Muslim majority.

I have not made any indication to the contrary, have I? I even agreed with you on that. Given the right circumstances most any group can be violent and hateful(take this instance or groups like the KKK who use the same Bible as every other Christian, or the radicals in the Middle East), and given the right circumstances most any group can be peaceful(take the majority of Muslims and Christians living in the US for instance).

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The bolded portion was simply a statement of truth to back up my assertions that both groups, as with all groups of humans, are capable of violence and hatred. It was not really directed at anyone in particular. Some people tend to view their enemies as less human than they are(wasn't saying you or jmfcst do so), so I tend to bring that up when talking about differing groups.

Yeah, he is tring to paint Christianity as being equivalent to Islam in regard to violence.

As I stated before, that is not true. I recognize that Islam has a bigger problem with violence than Christianity does on a global scale. I am simply pointing out both groups are capable of it. If you wish to continue to miscostrue my intentions to suit your own views, you're free to do so, but it won't change the truth.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Tibo’s son, Robert, told Christian followers early Friday that his father “begged us not to be angry, not to seek revenge.”

  “He asked us to forgive those who did this to him. ’God blesses all of us,’ he said.

That says a lot. When do Muslims say such things?

If I were President I'd be tempted to send troops to the Indonesian embassy and pull an Iran 1979 right now, but I would not because that's their way of handling things, not the Christian way.

[jerusalemcar5]

Christianity and Islam long ago abandoned the true prinicples they were based on.  Now they just kill each other.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Christianity and Islam long ago abandoned the true prinicples they were based on.  Now they just kill each other.

That's not true.  Look at all the Christian churches for peace. Of course some modern day Pharisees have abandoned that and gone violent, but I don't care about them.

As for Islam, it was founded on violence. Comparing the two religions is rather pointless in this regard. Look at this way:

-How many people did Jesus kill or conquer?
-How many people did Mohammed kill or conquer?

[jerusalemcar5]

Christianity and Islam long ago abandoned the true prinicples they were based on.  Now they just kill each other.

That's not true.  Look at all the Christian churches for peace. Of course some modern day Pharisees have abandoned that and gone violent, but I don't care about them.

As for Islam, it was founded on violence. Comparing the two religions is rather pointless in this regard. Look at this way:

-How many people did Jesus kill or conquer?
-How many people did Mohammed kill or conquer?

Islam was founded on peace dumbass.  If Muhammad had not had the small battles he had, the Bedouins would have continued their disastrous and brutal wars that were destroying the region.  The ultimate goal and result was to create a united peaceful Arab people free from war. 

Also, you seem to brush aside the fact that there are countless mosques that support peace.  But neither these nor peace churches have become dominant in Muslim and Christian cultures.

[WMS]

The point I was making is that this is happening because of unfair treatment of the minority Christians in Indonesia. While these riots are, indeed, acts of anger and even hatred, I would again say that they were brought on by acts of the Indonesian Muslim majority.

I have not made any indication to the contrary, have I? I even agreed with you on that. Given the right circumstances most any group can be violent and hateful(take this instance or groups like the KKK who use the same Bible as every other Christian, or the radicals in the Middle East), and given the right circumstances most any group can be peaceful(take the majority of Muslims and Christians living in the US for instance).

Just making sure it wasn't a "Christians are rioting becasue they're being hateful" bit. This doesn't appear to be the case here. Otherwise I agree with ya.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The bolded portion was simply a statement of truth to back up my assertions that both groups, as with all groups of humans, are capable of violence and hatred. It was not really directed at anyone in particular. Some people tend to view their enemies as less human than they are(wasn't saying you or jmfcst do so), so I tend to bring that up when talking about differing groups.[/quote]

Oh well, true enough. Every group, including the secular atheists is capable of hatred. I guess that wraps up our discussion.