Tonge sacked over suicide bomber comment
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  Tonge sacked over suicide bomber comment
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Author Topic: Tonge sacked over suicide bomber comment  (Read 7039 times)
Filuwaúrdjan
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« on: January 23, 2004, 03:56:54 PM »

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Gustaf
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« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2004, 04:17:45 PM »

Well, if you say something like that, you would proabably have to leave. Too man people lack clear moral principles.
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migrendel
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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2004, 09:49:50 PM »
« Edited: January 23, 2004, 09:50:21 PM by migrendel »

Tonge spoke in favor of Palestinian rights, and I regret to see her go. The leadership bench's problem is that it failed to see any of this on its simplest level. Any human being is capable of lashing back if its territory is invaded. Anyone is capable of killing if provoked. But what frightens me the most is that the Israeli ambassador was so quick to call this a calumny against Jews. Ms. Tonge never mentioned them, and this is part of an Anti-Semitic smear you see so often these days. Many fine people have been victimized by those who claim anyone who dares defy the most criminal excesses of the State of Israel is on a par with Hitler. Such irresponsibility is for another era, but not for the cultural sensitivity of today.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2004, 04:24:38 AM »

In other news... Tam Dayell has decided to retire at the next election.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2004, 07:41:18 AM »

Tonge spoke in favor of Palestinian rights, and I regret to see her go. The leadership bench's problem is that it failed to see any of this on its simplest level. Any human being is capable of lashing back if its territory is invaded. Anyone is capable of killing if provoked. But what frightens me the most is that the Israeli ambassador was so quick to call this a calumny against Jews. Ms. Tonge never mentioned them, and this is part of an Anti-Semitic smear you see so often these days. Many fine people have been victimized by those who claim anyone who dares defy the most criminal excesses of the State of Israel is on a par with Hitler. Such irresponsibility is for another era, but not for the cultural sensitivity of today.

A lot of them probably are...why do people think it so important to attack Israel, but not all other illegal ocuaptions in the world?
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2004, 08:48:34 AM »

Because Israelis are Jewish and old bigotries die hard.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2004, 09:37:48 AM »

Because Israelis are Jewish and old bigotries die hard.

Yeah, that is at least what I strongly suspect. There are a lot of valid concerns about Israel and their policies, but the intense hatred of the Jewish state has to originate somewhere.
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migrendel
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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2004, 12:06:45 PM »

I don't dislike Jewish people. I really don't. I just think that Palestinians are getting the short end of the stick, and they deserve better from Israel, a nation that is doing some genuinely appalling things.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2004, 12:29:29 PM »

I don't dislike Jewish people. I really don't. I just think that Palestinians are getting the short end of the stick, and they deserve better from Israel, a nation that is doing some genuinely appalling things.

I don't think that you're an anti-semite, but that a lot of the anti-Israelis are. I think Israel could handle things better, but they have been persecuted throughout millennia, and have fought 7 wars with their neighbours over the last 50 years. They are so intensely hated bu the Arabs that it's understandable that they view the Palestinians with suspicion.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2004, 12:32:42 PM »

Both sides deserve better from each other...
Both Sharon (a crook) and Arafat (a terrorist cum mafiosi) need to go for the peace process to work.
Sharon might have to go soon anyway (a major corruption scandal has broken out) but what can be done about Arafat? It looks like nothing... Sad

One thing that REALLY pisses me off is people saying that "anti-Israel is not anti-semitism".
They would not be allowed to be "anti"(ie; calling for the destruction of) any other country because that would rightly be seen as racist.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2004, 12:37:20 PM »

Both sides deserve better from each other...
Both Sharon (a crook) and Arafat (a terrorist cum mafiosi) need to go for the peace process to work.
Sharon might have to go soon anyway (a major corruption scandal has broken out) but what can be done about Arafat? It looks like nothing... Sad

One thing that REALLY pisses me off is people saying that "anti-Israel is not anti-semitism".
They would not be allowed to be "anti"(ie; calling for the destruction of) any other country because that would rightly be seen as racist.

Some countries are simply PC to hate. Israel most notably, but basically any anglo-saxon democracy. The Indian occupation of Kashmir or the Chinese of Tibet seldom get the big headlines and demonstrations.
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M
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« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2004, 03:15:55 PM »

Gald to hear this from you all, Realpolitik and Gustaf Just wish more Euro-liberals shared your views.

Heck, if CNN wasn;t so anit-semitical, I might be a dem today. I'm one of those weirdos who doesn't hate the liberal media because of the libs... I hate the libs because I despise CNN and Reuters...
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Michael Z
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« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2004, 06:01:56 PM »
« Edited: January 24, 2004, 06:14:01 PM by Michael Zeigermann »

I agree entirely that Jenny Tonge's comments were clumsy and totally uncalled for. Gustaf and Realpolitik were right on the money with a lot of the things they said.

Furthermore, it would have been hypocritical of us as a society to condemn Kilroy-Silk's anti-Arab comments, and then suddenly play the free speech card when Jenny Tonge makes a clumsy statement like that.

However, M, please don't get me wrong, I understand the level of suffering Jewish people have endured throughout the centuries and I totally respect the free state of Israel, but your attitude here is far from constructive. I mean, you see anti-Semites everywhere! Howard Dean, CNN... who's next? To accuse someone of racism is an extremely serious affair, and not something to be done lightly.

If we want to resolve the situation in Israel and stop people from dying we need to have a debate. But if people are too scared to contribute for fear of being branded anti-Semitic (because they may say something Likud or other conservative groups won't like) they won't, and as a consequence people will continue to die.

What you're doing is not stopping anti-Semitism, it is stifling debate.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2004, 06:52:48 PM »

Gald to hear this from you all, Realpolitik and Gustaf Just wish more Euro-liberals shared your views.

Heck, if CNN wasn;t so anit-semitical, I might be a dem today. I'm one of those weirdos who doesn't hate the liberal media because of the libs... I hate the libs because I despise CNN and Reuters...

I have to agree a little with Mike here, you seem a little too aggressive on some issues today, M. For the record, I am not really a "Euro-liberal", I'm conservative in Europe, rather clearly so. In America, it makes me a centrist, who, in this election, leans Dem. A lot of people seem to view me as a left-winger or someone who is very liberal in the American sense. It's not that I would be ashamed of it, I just want to make it clear that I'm really not.
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migrendel
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« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2004, 07:31:44 PM »

I'm perfectly aware that people of Jewish extraction have endured horrendous violations of their human rights, from being run off their land, to pogroms, to the Holocaust. However, M, you are far too quick to label someone as an anti-semite. I believe it is possible to hold views contrary to the current actions of the State of Israel and still be sympathetic to Jews. If another nation persecuted a minority, such as a Christian nation persecuting Jews, there would be condemnation. People are just applying that standard to the goings on in Israel. Also, to make such broad-based accusations of bias entails establishing that a broad range of individuals, institutions, and government organs consciously act in a way to disadvantage Jews. It would seem to me that placing such an emphasis on such a line of thought is rather self-centered. This might be most shocking to you, but perhaps people don't give Israel and Jews in general that much thought when they go about their business. But then again, that in itself might be anti-semitism to you. I really wish you were more prudent and less swift to judge. Lord knows how many people of goodwill have seen their careers tarnished by such accusations. So the next time you decide to level such a claim, think about it. Apply a strict level of scrutiny to any statement of that nature, because there is no reason why the innocent should be wrapped up in the hysteria of those who care about little else than whether their precious Israel is in their overly demanding minds being assailed.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2004, 07:36:16 PM »

I'm perfectly aware that people of Jewish extraction have endured horrendous violations of their human rights, from being run off their land, to pogroms, to the Holocaust. However, M, you are far too quick to label someone as an anti-semite. I believe it is possible to hold views contrary to the current actions of the State of Israel and still be sympathetic to Jews. If another nation persecuted a minority, such as a Christian nation persecuting Jews, there would be condemnation. People are just applying that standard to the goings on in Israel. Also, to make such broad-based accusations of bias entails establishing that a broad range of individuals, institutions, and government organs consciously act in a way to disadvantage Jews. It would seem to me that placing such an emphasis on such a line of thought is rather self-centered. This might be most shocking to you, but perhaps people don't give Israel and Jews in general that much thought when they go about their business. But then again, that in itself might be anti-semitism to you. I really wish you were more prudent and less swift to judge. Lord knows how many people of goodwill have seen their careers tarnished by such accusations. So the next time you decide to level such a claim, think about it. Apply a strict level of scrutiny to any statement of that nature, because there is no reason why the innocent should be wrapped up in the hysteria of those who care about little else than whether their precious Israel is in their overly demanding minds being assailed.

I actually think that the Israel.Palestine conflict gets a LOT of attention, probably more attention than it really deserves.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2004, 05:14:55 AM »

I can understand why M see anti-semitism everywhere, but whatever residual anti-semitism there is in the U.S it is nothing compared to, say, Toulon in Southern France (the council is run by the FN) or much of Romania.

BTW I'm no liberal... I'm a Christian Socialist.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2004, 07:30:17 AM »

I can understand why M see anti-semitism everywhere, but whatever residual anti-semitism there is in the U.S it is nothing compared to, say, Toulon in Southern France (the council is run by the FN) or much of Romania.

BTW I'm no liberal... I'm a Christian Socialist.

That's interesting...there is next to no anti-semitism in Sweden either, apart from  in the Arab minority, where there is a lot of it.
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ABD
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« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2004, 06:12:42 AM »

I just think what Tonge said was dumb politics, regardless of whether it was dumb policy or not.  She won't be doing her successor in her seat any favours.

And I saw somone mention Kilroy earlier in the thread.  He's better than his show. (And Trisha's a better watch anyway on ITV1, except I would've loved a bit more biff on her show like Jerry Springer.  It's a bit too British.)
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