Are the Conservatives conservative?

[afleitch]

What are the Tories conservative about?

I could ask the same question of the GOP

[afleitch]

That's not an answer.

True; but it does present one point that I think is quite important, what is considered as 'conservative' varies from nation to nation, and indeed within the US and the Republican Party itself

[afleitch]

They're not really anymore. Cameron's tories are to the left of Menzies' Libdems.

You have got to be kidding me.

[afleitch]

They're not really anymore. Cameron's tories are to the left of Menzies' Libdems.

You have got to be kidding me.

Evidence: Menzies, very shortly after taking leadership, came forward supporting lowering the top income tax rates. Cameron says there is doubt weather there is a margin for lowering taxes. I rest my case.

Firstly, if you don't support tax cuts you are automatically not a Conservative and if you support them you automatically are? If so that is a very narrow definition of what it means to be Conservative.

Secondly, the Lib Dem policy was to lower the top rate, but increase the threshold so in fact the top 10% of earners (which is what seems to entice you most) would pay more including a tax on aviation and the possibility of increased road tax and fuel duty.

[afleitch]

So if a party decided to cut income tax but raise consumption taxes to the extent that the total tax burden is altogether higher, thats okay?

[afleitch]

So if a party decided to cut income tax but raise consumption taxes to the extent that the total tax burden is altogether higher, thats okay?

Depends on how higher. Of course, but you have not shown that hat would be the effect. I am merely stating that consumption taxes are better than income taxes.

There are some who believe it would do so when costed, and indeed some within the Lib Dems themselves who strove to retain the high tax rate and and swung due to the consumption taxes.

I also believe consumption taxes to be faier, but I'm won't allow myself to be duped with a small cut in income tax and a hike in consumption tax from a party that, to be honest, doesn't need to do the sums because they will never achieve power

[afleitch]

And yet, that does not change the fact that, with their current leaderships, the libdems are much more economically conservative than the tories.
Now if only they droped their anti-liberal europhilia...

But a  party is much more than it's leader. You cannot say the Lib Dems are more economically conservative than the Conservative Party when most Lib Dems MP's including most of the 2005 intake and the party membership are supportive of more extensive tax rises than even the Labour Party. MP Phil Willis said the new tax plan was a "a slippery slope towards more right-wing draconian policies".

[afleitch]

And I hate saying this, as someone who wishes the party all the best, but the Conservatie Party is composed of wolves and well...wolves in sheeps clothing

[afleitch]

Now Thatcher, she was a conservative. Watching her call out Labour MPs for supporting communism in South Africa... priceless. But now? The parties just take positions to score political points.

And what Thatcher did wasn't points scoring?

The position taken, or indeed lack of position taken by many Conservatives in regards to apartheid in South Africa was indefensible and I'm glad the party has apologised for that.

[afleitch]

Cameron's repositioning is purely cosmetic; his partys policies (many of which in the recnt past were popular according to poll data, but support fell when voters were told they were Tory policies) cannot be taken seriously if his party has a poor public image.

If you read carefully what Cameron is saying, even the things that seem downright odd at first glance you can see they are carefully calculated to make Labour look as if they are taking the 'extreme' position even when in reality they are not. Everything Cameron says and does is designed to make Labour look less centrist by comparison.

For example, Camerons response to the veil issue; supporting the education authorities position but saying politicians should stay out of making pronouncements made the comments made by Labour cabinet minsters seem extreme. Speaking out against Gordon Browns NHS cuts was designed to make the Conservatives appear more favourable (and the party are in a statistical tie when it comes to best at managing the NHS) Even his support for gay couples and civil partnerships (regardless of his actual voting record) was designed to outflank Blairs more generic (but with an actual voting record) support for gay rights during his conference speech.

Cameron is trying to reposition the perception of his party, rather than policy and also trying to influence the voters perception of Labour.