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Author Topic: president of the 30 million member National Association of Evangelicals is gay  (Read 2719 times)
nlm
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« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2006, 11:35:24 am »
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That you know so little about the goings on in the evangelical world, and yet are a part of is, is hardly something I can correct.

correct?  How is it even a problem? 

It's not a problem for me that you don't know the leaders that shape the movement of which you are a part.
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« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2006, 11:43:53 am »
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I guess you can't read: 

First and foremost, if he did what was claimed, he should admit it and repent and God will restore him.


Second, accusations made by one witness against anyone in the leadership of a church should not be entertained. 

What does that say? "accusations made by one witness against anyone in the leadership of a church should not be entertained."

Thanks for your concern - I can read just fine.


Why do you argue and stumble over the simplest of concepts?

So far, there are only two witnesses:  the pastor and the prostitute.

If one witncess (the pastor) has agreed with some of the accusations the other witness (the prostitute) is making, then the case can move forward.  And since the accused is acting as a witness against himself, the case is over.

I am simply saying that if just one witness comes forward and accuses someone of doing something, I don't give it the time of day.  But if there are two witnesses, then I will entertain the accusation.  How is that a problem?
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« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2006, 11:45:53 am »
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That you know so little about the goings on in the evangelical world, and yet are a part of is, is hardly something I can correct.

correct?  How is it even a problem? 

It's not a problem for me that you don't know the leaders that shape the movement of which you are a part.

LOL!   Since when did Haggard become my leader?
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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
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A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

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nlm
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« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2006, 12:02:22 pm »
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That you know so little about the goings on in the evangelical world, and yet are a part of is, is hardly something I can correct.

correct?  How is it even a problem? 

It's not a problem for me that you don't know the leaders that shape the movement of which you are a part.

LOL!   Since when did Haggard become my leader?

Not your leader - a leader of the movement of which you are a part. Which he is - perhaps the most important one (from a political stand point).
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« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2006, 12:08:41 pm »
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First and foremost, if he did what was claimed, he should admit it and repent and God will restore him.

Second, accusations made by one witness against anyone in the leadership of a church should not be entertained. 

1 Timothy 5:19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses.

If the witness has evidence (voice messages, etc), then the evidence can act as a second witness.  But, as a church member, I would demand the evidence be presented before I would entertain this accusation.


First, He has admitted it to the pastor that is replacing him, and the pastor has gone public with that info.

Second, being that the he has confirmed the accusation - there is more than one person. So that fits within Timothy 5:19 - right?

Since Haggard has admitted it - why would you need to demand more evidence?

What was the point you were trying to make with this post as it related to the the information in this thread?



« Last Edit: November 03, 2006, 12:12:23 pm by nlm »Logged

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« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2006, 12:12:30 pm »
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Not your leader - a leader of the movement of which you are a part. Which he is - perhaps the most important one (from a political stand point).

I am part of a "movement"?  Gee, I never got that memo.

You don't have to be part of a "movement" to agree with others on an issue.

And these so-called leaders' opinion of Harriet Miers didn't stop people like me from writing the White House and my Senators and demanding that her nomination be withdrawn.

You underestimate the power of the individual.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2006, 12:21:52 pm »
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Since Haggard has admitted it - why would you need to demand more evidence?

I didn't.  I am not even involved. 


---

What was the point you were trying to make with this post as it related to the the information in this thread?

Simply to demonstrate I don't agree with how this has been handled.  I would not have even questioned the pastor unless evidence was presented other than simply the word of a single person.

I would have dismissed the witness' testimony until he produced another witness, either in the form of an eyewitness or physical evidence.

Obviously, I don't have to worry about getting picked for jury duty.  For I would never convict a person based on the testimony of a single witness.  In such cases, I don't believe charges should even be pressed.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2006, 12:25:19 pm by jmfcst »Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
nlm
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« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2006, 12:26:03 pm »
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Not your leader - a leader of the movement of which you are a part. Which he is - perhaps the most important one (from a political stand point).

I am part of a "movement"?  Gee, I never got that memo.

You don't have to be part of a "movement" to agree with others on an issue.

And these so-called leaders' opinion of Harriet Miers didn't stop people like me from writing the White House and my Senators and demanding that her nomination be withdrawn.

You underestimate the power of the individual.

So you're not a politically active evangelical? Hmmm.

Haggard came down against Miers as well - I wonder who had more suck with the white house, you or Haggard? I wonder if the info you received about Miers that you found to be disturbing originated from the offices of Pastor Ted.

It not that I underestimate the power of the individual, it's that I understand the danger of mixing politics and religion in an overt manner and how that can effect some individuals.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2006, 12:32:59 pm by nlm »Logged

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« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2006, 12:30:04 pm »
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What was the point you were trying to make with this post as it related to the the information in this thread?

Simply to demonstrate I don't agree with how this has been handled.  I would not have even questioned the pastor unless evidence was presented other than simply the word of a single person.

I would have dismissed the witness' testimony until he produced another witness, either in the form of an eyewitness or physical evidence.

Obviously, I don't have to worry about getting picked for jury duty.  For I would never convict a person based on the testimony of a single witness.  In such cases, I don't believe charges should even be pressed.

Ah, but if it wasn't for that one individual and the fact that people were willing to listen to him - unlike you are saying should be done - the full scope of this lunatics hypocricy would never be known. Ignorance may be bliss for some - but it never uncovered a truth or helped to solve a problem.

You seem to be following the same formula used by the Catholics to solve their child sex problems.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2006, 12:36:39 pm by nlm »Logged

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« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2006, 12:42:35 pm »
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Ah, but if it wasn't for that one individual and the fact that people were willing to listen to him - unlike you are saying should be done - the full scope of this lunatics hypocricy would never be known. Ignorance may be bliss for some - but it never uncovered a truth or helped to solve a problem.

would never have been known?  The guy says he has tapes.  I simply would demand he produce the evidence (or another eyewitness) before I listened to him or even questioned the accused.

Why should I believe one person over another?  Why should I take a traffic cop's word over a motorist's?  How do I know that cop wasn't abusing his power?  The cop better produce some evidence that a person did what he is accusing, or else I am going to acquit the accused on the basis of lack of evidence. 

Like I said, I would never be picked for jury duty.
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2006, 12:46:42 pm »
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You seem to be following the same formula used by the Catholics to solve their child sex problems.

So, you're saying that if someone accuses YOU of rape, I am to listen to them and remove you from power even though no evidence has been produced to back up the claim?
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2006, 12:48:03 pm »
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Although this would be pretty funny (actually hilarious) if true, a little voice is reminding me "innocent under proven guilty".  I realize that most of the people on this forum have managed to get rid of that voice, but I find it extremely difficult to do so.
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« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2006, 12:49:36 pm »
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Although this would be pretty funny (actually hilarious) if true, a little voice is reminding me "innocent under proven guilty".  I realize that most of the people on this forum have managed to get rid of that voice, but I find it extremely difficult to do so.

Haggard already admitted it.
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« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2006, 12:51:17 pm »
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You seem to be following the same formula used by the Catholics to solve their child sex problems.

So, you're saying that if someone accuses YOU of rape, I am to listen to them and remove you from power even though no evidence has been produced to back up the claim?


No, you had indicated you would dismiss one side of the equation in this case, and take the other at their word. You have clarified that since.
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« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2006, 12:55:25 pm »
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Although this would be pretty funny (actually hilarious) if true, a little voice is reminding me "innocent under proven guilty".  I realize that most of the people on this forum have managed to get rid of that voice, but I find it extremely difficult to do so.

Haggard already admitted it.

Where?  I don't see any admittance.  Resigning from a position is not admittance, btw.
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« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2006, 12:57:25 pm »
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do you people really care about this?

this 'gay outing' business is getting really out of hand.

i had no fing idea who this guy was before this 'news' hit.  i really dont give a good goddamn what he does in his life, and neither should anyone else.
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« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2006, 01:04:20 pm »
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Although this would be pretty funny (actually hilarious) if true, a little voice is reminding me "innocent under proven guilty".  I realize that most of the people on this forum have managed to get rid of that voice, but I find it extremely difficult to do so.

Haggard already admitted it.

Where?  I don't see any admittance.  Resigning from a position is not admittance, btw.

Look a page or so earlier in the thread - the person that took over his church said he confessed to at least a portion of the accusations, there's a link there as well.
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« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2006, 01:08:18 pm »
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do you people really care about this?

this 'gay outing' business is getting really out of hand.

i had no fing idea who this guy was before this 'news' hit.  i really dont give a good goddamn what he does in his life, and neither should anyone else.

He spends his life talking smack about his fellow gays. He's also a key advisor to the President of the United States on values issues and how to merge politics, policy and those value issues. He's also a mouth piece for Bush on those same issues he helps Bush create.

Given that - I think quite a few folks just might take an interest in this - but I can understand why some might not.
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« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2006, 01:10:06 pm »
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Although this would be pretty funny (actually hilarious) if true, a little voice is reminding me "innocent under proven guilty".  I realize that most of the people on this forum have managed to get rid of that voice, but I find it extremely difficult to do so.

Haggard already admitted it.

Where?  I don't see any admittance.  Resigning from a position is not admittance, btw.

Look a page or so earlier in the thread - the person that took over his church said he confessed to at least a portion of the accusations, there's a link there as well.

That's hearsay, which is interesting, but not dispositive.  Once again I'm asking, where's the admittance?
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« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2006, 01:11:04 pm »
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do you people really care about this?

this 'gay outing' business is getting really out of hand.

i had no fing idea who this guy was before this 'news' hit.  i really dont give a good goddamn what he does in his life, and neither should anyone else.

He spends his life talking smack about his fellow gays. He's also a key advisor to the President of the United States on values issues and how to merge politics, policy and those value issues. He's also a mouth piece for Bush on those same issues he helps Bush create.

Given that - I think quite a few folks just might take an interest in this - but I can understand why some might not.

so what?

he is a hypocrite.  big news!

we all are hypocrites at some point in life.  human nature.

it is also human nature to kick people when they are down.  and that is all that is going on here.
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« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2006, 01:18:52 pm »
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Haggard came down against Miers as well - I wonder who had more suck with the white house, you or Haggard? I wonder if the info you received about Miers that you found to be disturbing originated from the offices of Pastor Ted.

I don't know if Haggard's opinion evolved on Miers, but this is how it begun:

Quote
The Rev. Ted Haggard, a Colorado Springs pastor whose growing national prominence has earned him a place on the White House phone tree, was not concerned about the early divisions among social conservatives over the nomination.

"Everybody's fine," said Haggard, pastor of New Life Church and president of the National Association of Evangelicals, an umbrella group of churches and denominations representing more than 30 million people. "This is just part of the process. It's actually good positioning because it confuses the liberals."

Haggard said he, like Dobson, received a phone call from the White House before Miers' nomination. Like Dobson, Haggard isn't talking about the conversation.

While Haggard said he would not pass judgment on Miers until after the nomination hearings, he gave a strong indication of his thinking: "If the president and Dr. Dobson say she's a good woman for the position," Haggard said, "odds are she is."

http://nonprophet.typepad.com/nonprophet/2005/10/ted_haggard_on_.html

So, Haggard, this so-called leader, was NOT a leader in demanding Miers withdrawal.  And I very much believe it was millions of conservatives like myself, going ballistic from the very moment she was nominated, who turned the tide and got her nomination withdrawn.

Unlike Haggard, I didnít want a milquetoast rubber stamping Christian on the SCOTUS.  I wanted someone who had excelled in constitutional law who was willing to adhere to the Constitution.
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2006, 01:25:06 pm »
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Look a page or so earlier in the thread - the person that took over his church said he confessed to at least a portion of the accusations, there's a link there as well.

That's hearsay, which is interesting, but not dispositive.  Once again I'm asking, where's the admittance?

That is NOT hearsay.  He is an eyewitness to Haggard's statement.
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Sam Spade
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« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2006, 01:27:49 pm »
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Look a page or so earlier in the thread - the person that took over his church said he confessed to at least a portion of the accusations, there's a link there as well.

That's hearsay, which is interesting, but not dispositive.  Once again I'm asking, where's the admittance?

That is NOT hearsay.  He is an eyewitness to Haggard's statement.

Uh, the classic definition of hearsay is one person saying to you that another person told him X or Y.
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« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2006, 01:32:55 pm »
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So you're not a politically active evangelical? Hmmm.

but that doesn't make me part of Haggard's "movement", just as agreeing with the Dems on certain issues (like min. wage) doesn't make me a Democrat.

I am an individual who picks and chooses the issues I will support, without affiation to any "movement".  

I am a registered Republican, however.

---

It not that I underestimate the power of the individual, it's that I understand the danger of mixing politics and religion in an overt manner and how that can effect some individuals.

As witnessed by EVERYONE'S expressed opinion on this forum, it is nearly impossible to seperate politics from religion.  People vote according to what they believe.
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
nlm
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« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2006, 01:34:02 pm »
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Although this would be pretty funny (actually hilarious) if true, a little voice is reminding me "innocent under proven guilty".  I realize that most of the people on this forum have managed to get rid of that voice, but I find it extremely difficult to do so.

Haggard already admitted it.

Where?  I don't see any admittance.  Resigning from a position is not admittance, btw.

Look a page or so earlier in the thread - the person that took over his church said he confessed to at least a portion of the accusations, there's a link there as well.

That's hearsay, which is interesting, but not dispositive.  Once again I'm asking, where's the admittance?

He didn't commit a crime here Sam - and he is not making any statements, nor will he ever be required to.

The fact that his right hand in his own church has come forward and said he admitted to this is enough for me, and I imagine will be more than enough for most folks. Why do you think that isn't good enough to formulate an educated opinion about this mans hypocrisy?
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