Well, this was supposed to be my response in my other thread, but...

[12th Doctor]

I don't really feel like answering every persons individual concerns, so let me just discuss them generally...

First off... I have had 15 hours to think and sober up... and I am no less angry than I was last night.

Allow me to go into a little more detail about those things I mentioned last night.

First off, to those of you who blame one of my best friends for his sexuality combined with his support of the Republicans, or in some other way insinuate that he deserved this, I say f*** you.  I know this might be impossible for you to understand (esspecially Opebo and BRTD), but his sexuality is not the sole motivating force behind his politics.  On 90% of all the other issues, he sides with our party.  You might also be suprized to know that I acctually have a few gay friends who do think this way.

And I have an even bigger shocker for you... no one on the campaign, including the Senator cared in the least that my friend was gay.

I can kill many birds with one stone by just telling you the story.  About six weeks ago, a memo came down to all of us from Harrisburg.  We were told to be watchful of what we did because the Casey camapaign, rather than spending money on building a campaign organization, was spending their money hiring private investigators to follow us around and dig up anything they could that might be potentionally damaging.  The reason I never mentioned it before, and the reason it was not made public was because this information had been handed down to us by a few people who had defected from the Casey campaign, sighting Casey's current and planned tactics as their reason for leaving.  Disclosing this woudl have nulled and voided any valuable information they could give us.  We know they were being truthful because everything they gave us happened exactly as they said it would.

Anyway, the day after this memo went out, my friend got a call from Harrisburg saying that the Casey people have something on him.  He obviously knew what it was right away.  Not even five minutes after the end of this call, Senator Santorum, the mean evil, nasty guy who hates everything, including puppies called my friend up and said he was sorry that this had happened and asked if their was anything he could do for my friend.  The Senator made it very clear that he didn't care if my friend was gay or not, he and the rest of the campaign would stick by him if the Democrats decided to release this to the media.

Well, two weeks passed by and we held our breathe, then the Fooley scandal hit.  The Democrats took advantage of the event (assuming they had not planned it) to make up a list of all homosexual staffers who are working for GOP Congressmen and circulate it around Washington to all the various right-wing groups.  My friend got a call and was infomed that he (along with a couple other Santorum staffers) was on the list, even though he wasn't even government staff.

Now, one can imagine how if might feel to a person to be outted in front of all of Washington.  Outted by the same people, no less, who life to trumpet what friends they are of the homosexual community.

I myself believe that I was followed and my personal affiars tampered with on a few occations... somethings seemed to have gone mysteriously wrong with my car for no reason.  And someone hit it while it was parked in the lot in such a way so as they would have had to have gone out of their way to do so since it was only exposed on one side, the exposed side was located on the opposite side of the alley from the driving side and it was, at least in theory, shielded by another car, in short, there is no way someone did not intentionally ram it.  Rather odd that it shoudl happen immediatly after my name was put on the list of official campaign staff.

There is much that I coudl talk about, but I will mention what happened ove rthe weekend to prove my point and then move on...

All this weekend, we had phone banking to identify voters and make sure they get out to the polls.  Our office was filled with people.  I drove by that day, since I was in the neighborhood, to see what the Dems had going.  There were three people in their office.

At about 2pm Saturday (and again on Sunday and Monday) a blue bus plastered with Casey signs arrived and blasted very loud music into our HQ... so much so as we could not get any work done.

This was not an off-the-cuff thing, they had obviously planned for this, because the Twp that our office is located in had no regulations against public noise and, unlike their HQ, there is plenty of public parking around.  We caleld the police, but they couldn't do anything... they finally left at 6pm (each day).

So, that was the Casey campaign in a nutshell, they didn't do anything to help out their guy, their whole effort was centered around making it as hard for us as possible.  Nice people.  Obviously love their guy more than they hate us.  Casey is obviously a uniter with some great ideas.

As I said, it doesn't end there, but that is an idea.

Now... as for the nature of this kind of camapign, I have never endorsed it, and the Senator did not run this kind of campaign.  Santorum at least tried to talk about the issues.  Casey made Santorum the issue.  This hurts me all the worse because I have now met with the Rick several times and he is a good man, funny, attentive and genuinely concerned.

This is not to mention the multiple reports that we got of the voting people having trouble with the voting machines in the county and having either accidentally voted Casey or have had to push the button for Santorum four times before if you come up as Santorum and not Casey.  The over-all county election judge (who is a huge lib and owes his job to the his Democrat wife) told us that he investigated the claims and found no evidence of wrong doing.

Finally, I am pissed off because I personally have met with a lot of the people, both politicians and staffers, who lost their jobs last night.

If Casey didn't know what his campaign was up to in all these dirty tricks, then what does that say about him?  That he is disinterested.  That he is not attentive.  That he is not a leader.  That he shoudl be more like Rick, who was intensly involved with every detail of his campaign.

If he he did know, then he is truely not only an idiot and incompetant, but also a terrible human being.

Either way, I'll look forward to beating him in four years when he runs for governor.

P.S.  Dave how many times have I asked you to take away my moderator status?  Dozens.  I kinda know how Rumsfeld felt... how many times do I have to offer my resignation before you will accept it?

I would much rather have the freedom to say what I want without having to worry about how it makes the forum look.  I'm not Alcon, I don't care nearly so much about propriety.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

The oldest rule in politics.

Incumbents lose elections - challengers don't win.

[Keystone Phil]

Thank you for all your work, Super, and for putting up with the slimeballs.

Either way, I'll look forward to beating him in four years when he runs for governor.

And we will beat him.

[Colin]

Very interesting Soulty and it solidifies my faith in the fact that Casey was really a slimeball in this campaign. Outing Republican staffers just because they are homosexual is very low and very hypocritical.

As for Santorum it is nice to hear how he handled those certain tactics and the genuine acring nature that you said he showed during your experiences with him. It's nice to see that, whatever positions he holds, they don't cloud his judgement of people.

I didn't see what you wrote last night, since I was busy in the Midterm chatroom, but as for your Mod status I think you should keep it. You're doing a fine job as Mod and all of us loose our cool. So don't sweat it.

Plus you're not Rumsfeld since you're actually doing your job and you have yet to poorly execute a war on the Atlas Forum.

[Deano963]

The Senator made it very clear that he didn't care if my friend was gay or not, he and the rest of the campaign would stick by him if the Democrats decided to release this to the media.

I'm sorry but first of all I think you are seriously overestimating the importance/newsworthiness of the sexuality of a mere campaign staffer. The Democrats would not release your friend's sexuality (assuming they even knew, which I will get to in a moment) to the media b/c who in the hell would give a damn? You think the sexual orientation of a single staffer is of any importance whatsoever? You have got to be kidding me. No paper or tv news outlet in their right mind would give that story any time whatsoever. Period. End of discussion.

Well, two weeks passed by and we held our breathe, then the Fooley scandal hit.  The Democrats took advantage of the event (assuming they had not planned it) to make up a list of all homosexual staffers who are working for GOP Congressmen and circulate it around Washington to all the various right-wing groups.  My friend got a call and was infomed that he (along with a couple other Santorum staffers) was on the list, even though he wasn't even government staff.

Where is your proof that Democrats compiled a list of known gays and circulated it around Washington?

Not trying to be a prick - and I would feel sympathy for your friend if this story is true - but you offer no evidence and I find this all very unbelievable.

And by the way Kevin, Democrats were not the ones who leaked the Mark Foley story as you insinuate. It is common knowledge that the story was originally leaked by a REPUBLICAN office:

http://www.harpers.org/sb-republicans-1160492797.html

This is another reason why I find it hard to believe you.

[danwxman]

Santorum brought it all on himself. He's a disgusting human being. Hate breeds more hate.

[Wakie]

Deano is absolutely right.  The sexuality of an individual staffer wouldn't even be page 10 material.  No one would care.  And for Soulty to argue earlier that it "ended my friend's career" is ridiculous.  As he himself points out, the Senator didn't care.

Soulty, get off your cross.  If you can't handle defeat don't go into politics because you don't have the skin for it.

Lee Atwater and Karl Rove have made an artform of dirty tricks.  Now you're upset about things like a list of names and a bus?!?!  You're acting like someone went on tv and called Santorum's 13 yr old daughter a dog.  Oh wait, that was Rush Limbaugh.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Supersoulty,

Santorum played the clown too many times.  Just a couple of months ago he held a press conference claiming the US had found WMD in Iraq, though it was only a couple of old mustard gas shells.

In any case, he would not have survived this year in this political climate, dirty tricks or no dirty tricks.  The GOP deserved to lose and lose big.

As for your gay friend...I think it is evil to publicly disclose sin and I am glad Santorum apologized on behalf of Casey.  I want to suggest you talk to your friend about repentance; but first, you really need to deal with the hatred you've expressed over the last 24 hours.  There is a lot more to life than politics and hatred will only take away your own life and replace it with bitterness.

[Deano963]

As for your gay friend...I think it is evil to publicly disclose sin and I am glad Santorum apologized on behalf of Casey.  I want to suggest you talk to your friend about repentance;

Ummm......I'm confused by your statement. What sin did his friend commit and what does his friend have to repent for?

Please tell me you're not suggesting what I think you are.

[Nym90]

As for your gay friend...I think it is evil to publicly disclose sin and I am glad Santorum apologized on behalf of Casey.  I want to suggest you talk to your friend about repentance;

Ummm......I'm confused by your statement. What sin did his friend commit and what does his friend have to repent for?

Please tell me you're not suggesting what I think you are.

He's made it clear that homosexuality is a sin in his opinion.

But getting back on topic, I truly empathize with how you feel. Politics is often quite dirty, and I think it's way too idealistic to think your guy (whoever that may be, I'm not just addressing you here Chris) is pure and noble and the other side is totally slimy and dirty. I do agree with those who have said that Santorum, through his positions, has helped breed a culture of hatred and intolerance, and thus at some point what comes around tends to go around. Of course, it's always sad when individuals get screwed due to the actions of others that created that climate.

But yes, politics is dirty. Both sides do it, and both sides get angry about it. It doesn't make it any less despicable, but it's important to keep it in perspective and realize that the illusion that, as I said, only the "other guys" do it is quite flawed.

[Cubby]

Gay Republican officials are Uncle Toms. They should be outed b/c their hypocrisy is not a private matter. The damage the Republican party causes to gay relationships hurts millions of people. Not being allowed to marry or be recognized causes social and financial difficulties that straight people never have to worry about.

Santorum was the Imperial Wizard of Senate Gay Bashing. Other Republican Senators who have treated us like scum:

James Inhofe
Jim de Mint
Tom Coburn
Trent Lott

On a positive note, Gordon Smith (R-OR) has been surprisingly decent, for a Western Mormon Senator.

[12th Doctor]

1) Anyone who thinks that the papers up here would not print such a story obviously has no expirience dealing with the Erie Times.  When we first heard, we assumed that the motive for releasing it would be one of 3 things.

a) to kill our volunteer base just before the election

b) sheer vindictivness

c) release it later when my friend runs for office... of course this is still quite possible

2) I have no proof to give you directly, since I never sought to obtain the list.  All I can say is that that is exactly what happened and if I exagerated it, lied about it of in anyother way knowingly misrepresented it then may God strike me dead right here.

When it happened we found out through a series of phone calls from people in the Santorum staff and other places in Washington and Harrisburg.  It's how the rest of the staff who did not know about it found out.  Trust me, this was very real.

3) I am not dead... so I assume that means I am telling the truth

4) My anger will die when we defeat Bobby Casey's run for governor in 4 years and then end his political career.  No sooner.  No later.

5) As for my allusions that will end, or at least seriously hamper my friends career... just wait until he runs for something.

6) It doesn't matter if the Senator cares, voters will.  Even if my friend is not the candidate, his being highly placed on anyone's staff is now a potnetial liability.  Lucky, Phil English does not care, but he is also retiring after this term.

7) I am not Lee Atwater, Karl Rove or Rush Limbaugh, nor is my friend.  Wakie, I never liked you and I never will and your suggestion that we deserve this because of some mythical relationship we have with the political manuverings of those other individuals only solidifies my conviction.

[danwxman]

Sore Loserman

[Cubby]

Supersoulty you've always been a moderate. You really need to calm down. No one has any idea what you're talking about. I don't know who was outed or why, but if they worked for Santorum, then they deserved it.

Bob Casey isn't going to run for Governor in 4 years. He's going to be a Senator for at least 6 years, probably longer. Santorum will be too busy spewing hate and forcing his children to look at their dead brother.

[12th Doctor]

Sore Loserman

You know what the best part of all of this is?  Casey didn't have to do a single one of these things to win.  He and his campaign just did them out of pure spite and vindictivness.

You have chosen to try to belittle me by saying that thsi is about me being a sore loser when that has very little if nothing to do witht eh reason I am angry.

[12th Doctor]

Santorum will be too busy spewing hate...

 and forcing his children to look at their dead brother.

Oh the irony of this statement.

[Deano963]

As for your gay friend...I think it is evil to publicly disclose sin and I am glad Santorum apologized on behalf of Casey.  I want to suggest you talk to your friend about repentance;

Ummm......I'm confused by your statement. What sin did his friend commit and what does his friend have to repent for?

Please tell me you're not suggesting what I think you are.

He's made it clear that homosexuality is a sin in his opinion.

That's exactly what I thought he was saying, obviously. I just wanted to be 100% sure and give him the benefit of the doubt before I label him a bigot.

[12th Doctor]

Gay Republican officials are Uncle Toms. They should be outed b/c their hypocrisy is not a private matter. The damage the Republican party causes to gay relationships hurts millions of people. Not being allowed to marry or be recognized causes social and financial difficulties that straight people never have to worry about.

Oh, and BTW, you know how my friend woudl respond to this?

"I'm not so insecure that I need a government institution to tell me that my love is okay."

I guess you guys just see things differently.

[Deano963]

2) I have no proof to give you directly, since I never sought to obtain the list.  All I can say is that that is exactly what happened and if I exagerated it, lied about it of in anyother way knowingly misrepresented it then may God strike me dead right here.

When it happened we found out through a series of phone calls from people in the Santorum staff and other places in Washington and Harrisburg.  It's how the rest of the staff who did not know about it found out.  Trust me, this was very real.

3) I am not dead... so I assume that means I am telling the truth

So you never saw this list and have no proof that it exists other than the word of:

"people in the Santorum staff and other places in Washington and Harrisburg"?

....um....yeh....... b/c I 100% trust the word of anonymous Santorum staffers and complete strangers from Washington and Harrisburg. Lord knows there are no dishonest people among those three groups of people. Personally I have never met a dishonest person from D.C. or a dishonest Santorum supporter (rolling my eyes....).

You're gonna need to do a lot better than that, Soulty. You have not provided even the scent of credibility that your accusations might be true. I wasn't trying to be insulting before, but you need to either put up or shut up as they say.


Oh, and by the way, may God Almighty strike me down if I m not wearing purple socks right now!


.......................................



.......................................



WTF!?!? I'm not wearing purple socks and I am still alive!

Apparently it is possible to lie and not be smote by the Lord as you claim, Soulty.

[Alcon]

Gay Republican officials are Uncle Toms. They should be outed b/c their hypocrisy is not a private matter. The damage the Republican party causes to gay relationships hurts millions of people. Not being allowed to marry or be recognized causes social and financial difficulties that straight people never have to worry about.

Oh, and BTW, you know how my friend woudl respond to this?

"I'm not so insecure that I need a government institution to tell me that my love is okay."

I guess you guys just see things differently.

With all respect, do you really think the point of gay rights is to sanction homosexuality so people "feel better"?

[Deano963]

Gay Republican officials are Uncle Toms. They should be outed b/c their hypocrisy is not a private matter. The damage the Republican party causes to gay relationships hurts millions of people. Not being allowed to marry or be recognized causes social and financial difficulties that straight people never have to worry about.

Oh, and BTW, you know how my friend woudl respond to this?

"I'm not so insecure that I need a government institution to tell me that my love is okay."

I guess you guys just see things differently.

I've never heard a gay person(s) say that they wanted the government to okay their love, Soulty. Never. All I've heard them tell me is that they want the government to leave them alone and to not say that their love ISN 'T okay.

You're almost as good at twisting people's words into something completley different than what they said as your precious Santorum is. I'm sorry - was.

[12th Doctor]

2) I have no proof to give you directly, since I never sought to obtain the list.  All I can say is that that is exactly what happened and if I exagerated it, lied about it of in anyother way knowingly misrepresented it then may God strike me dead right here.

When it happened we found out through a series of phone calls from people in the Santorum staff and other places in Washington and Harrisburg.  It's how the rest of the staff who did not know about it found out.  Trust me, this was very real.

3) I am not dead... so I assume that means I am telling the truth

So you never saw this list and have no proof that it exists other than the word of:

"people in the Santorum staff and other places in Washington and Harrisburg"?

....um....yeh....... b/c I 100% trust the word of anonymous Santorum staffers and complete strangers from Washington and Harrisburg. Lord knows there are no dishonest people among those three groups of people. Personally I have never met a dishonest person from D.C. or a dishonest Santorum supporter (rolling my eyes....).

You're gonna need to do a lot better than that, Soulty. You have not provided even the scent of credibility that your accusations might be true. I wasn't trying to be insulting before, but you need to either put up or shut up as they say.

Yes, because it is far far far more likely that Santorum's offices in Harrisburg and Washington, people at the Club For Growth, people in Phil English's office, people in the Heritage Foundation, etc, etc ocastrated this massive conspiriacy to make my friend think that this list exists than it is that the list might acctually exist.  MY friend saw the list, BTW, and the only reason I never saw it is because I never cared to look.  I can tell you, however, that I consoled my friend for several minutes after we were told it came out.  I can also tell you that many of the people who called (not in the campaign) asking if it was true politely told my friend that he could stop associating with them once he told them that it was.

[12th Doctor]

Gay Republican officials are Uncle Toms. They should be outed b/c their hypocrisy is not a private matter. The damage the Republican party causes to gay relationships hurts millions of people. Not being allowed to marry or be recognized causes social and financial difficulties that straight people never have to worry about.

Oh, and BTW, you know how my friend woudl respond to this?

"I'm not so insecure that I need a government institution to tell me that my love is okay."

I guess you guys just see things differently.

I've never heard a gay person(s) say that they wanted the government to okay their love, Soulty. Never. All I've heard them tell me is that they want the government to leave them alone and to not say that their love ISN 'T okay.

You're almost as good at twisting people's words into something completley different than what they said as your precious Santorum is. I'm sorry - was.

Seeing as this is exactly what he said when I asked him a question falling along those lines I haven't twisted anything.  I merely stated what he told me.  Since I support civil unions I hardly see how you can turn this on me.  All I was stating was that not all gays think alike and not that supporting Santorum need not mean that my friend is a traitor or deserved to be followed by a private investigator and outted.

[12th Doctor]

Gay Republican officials are Uncle Toms. They should be outed b/c their hypocrisy is not a private matter. The damage the Republican party causes to gay relationships hurts millions of people. Not being allowed to marry or be recognized causes social and financial difficulties that straight people never have to worry about.

Oh, and BTW, you know how my friend woudl respond to this?

"I'm not so insecure that I need a government institution to tell me that my love is okay."

I guess you guys just see things differently.

With all respect, do you really think the point of gay rights is to sanction homosexuality so people "feel better"?

No, I don't.  I was merely combating the accusation what my friend is somehow a hypocrite or deserved what he got.

[Deano963]

2) I have no proof to give you directly, since I never sought to obtain the list.  All I can say is that that is exactly what happened and if I exagerated it, lied about it of in anyother way knowingly misrepresented it then may God strike me dead right here.

When it happened we found out through a series of phone calls from people in the Santorum staff and other places in Washington and Harrisburg.  It's how the rest of the staff who did not know about it found out.  Trust me, this was very real.

3) I am not dead... so I assume that means I am telling the truth

So you never saw this list and have no proof that it exists other than the word of:

"people in the Santorum staff and other places in Washington and Harrisburg"?

....um....yeh....... b/c I 100% trust the word of anonymous Santorum staffers and complete strangers from Washington and Harrisburg. Lord knows there are no dishonest people among those three groups of people. Personally I have never met a dishonest person from D.C. or a dishonest Santorum supporter (rolling my eyes....).

You're gonna need to do a lot better than that, Soulty. You have not provided even the scent of credibility that your accusations might be true. I wasn't trying to be insulting before, but you need to either put up or shut up as they say.

 I can also tell you that many of the people who called (not in the campaign) asking if it was true politely told my friend that he could stop associating with them once he told them that it was.

And you feel that this proves anything how?

And you feel that this is supposd to make me believe your hypothesis that Democrats put this list together why??

And who are these people who asked your freind to not associate himself with them? Republicans? Seriously - who are they exactly??? Am I supposed to feel badly that your party is full of bigots and homophobes?