Excellent article on racism and double standards

[afleitch]

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/sunny_hundal/2006/11/learning_from_kriss_donalds_mu.html

Not often I quote this 'blog' but Sunny Hundal always makes me sit up and listen.

Snippet below.

'Racism is not supposed to be a problem within minority communities because they are meant to be the victims in a global power-structure where the odds are stacked against them. Or that they cannot be racist because they themselves have been on the receiving end of prejudice.

But this dynamic ignores the fact that most people behave pretty similarly regardless of whether they are of the minority or majority ethnic group.'

[jerusalemcar5]

Well duh.  Racism is an issue on both sides.  It is just more of a negative issue for minorities because racism helps pereptuate white dominance, so people focus on racism against minorities.  Obviously most people have at least some racial stereotypes.

[Grad Students are the Worst]

"Segregation was wrong when it was forced by white people, and I believe it is still wrong when it is requested by black people." - Coretta Scott King

At least she was consistent, though I don't know how practical that point of view is.

"At least"?

[Beet]

Well duh.  Racism is an issue on both sides.  It is just more of a negative issue for minorities because racism helps pereptuate white dominance, so people focus on racism against minorities.  Obviously most people have at least some racial stereotypes.

Indeed. This issue has nothing to do with preferring majorities vs. minorities or group A vs. group B. The unjust behavior of the powerful is much more damaging than the unjust behavior of the weak (with the caveat that no one is completely weak). Ironically, this is one area where conservatives tend to look too much at intentions and not enough on possibilities.

[Beet]

Well duh.  Racism is an issue on both sides.  It is just more of a negative issue for minorities because racism helps pereptuate white dominance, so people focus on racism against minorities.  Obviously most people have at least some racial stereotypes.

Indeed. This issue has nothing to do with preferring majorities vs. minorities or group A vs. group B. The unjust behavior of the powerful is much more damaging than the unjust behavior of the weak (with the caveat that no one is completely weak). Ironically, this is one area where conservatives tend to look too much at intentions and not enough on possibilities.

Can you elaborate on your statement about intentions and possibilities, Beet?

I thought it was obvious. A dictator and a beggar may both want to commit atrocities, thus their intention is the same. But we should be much more concerned about the dictator than the beggar, because the dictator actually has the capabilities to carry out those intentions.

[Beet]

Well duh.  Racism is an issue on both sides.  It is just more of a negative issue for minorities because racism helps pereptuate white dominance, so people focus on racism against minorities.  Obviously most people have at least some racial stereotypes.

Indeed. This issue has nothing to do with preferring majorities vs. minorities or group A vs. group B. The unjust behavior of the powerful is much more damaging than the unjust behavior of the weak (with the caveat that no one is completely weak). Ironically, this is one area where conservatives tend to look too much at intentions and not enough on possibilities.

Can you elaborate on your statement about intentions and possibilities, Beet?

I thought it was obvious. A dictator and a beggar may both want to commit atrocities, thus their intention is the same. But we should be much more concerned about the dictator than the beggar, because the dictator actually has the capabilities to carry out those intentions.

Oh, I thought you meant something far more ambitious than that.  I was prepared for a much deeper discussion of the costs/benefits of affirmative action.

Well, there is a much deeper discussion of affirmative action to be had, but IMO it's an entirely different issue altogether. It has little to do with any ideals and falls outside the scope of this discussion.

The problem with your analogy is that some policies simply give the beggar the powers of the dictator, so the result is actually the same.  In the end, it makes no difference who commits the atrocities.  The conventional wisdom view on these matters is, effectively, to give the the beggars the same power to commit atrocities that the dictator has.  I don't see how that solves the problem.  Two wrongs don't make a right.

"Some policies," but not all. And even then, it's not necessarily the same. If there are two bad people with equal power, they balance each other out. Neither is able is able to abuse the other with impunity, and therefore there becomes an incentive for compromise. But I agree with you that this isn't the ideal situation either. If at all possible, the goal ought to be to reform people so that they are not attracted towards doing destructive things (including self-destructive).

[afleitch]

Everybody should have at least the potential or promise to become part of the majority, and not be viewed any differently than anybody else.

Unfortunately the 'majority' are not always welcome or indeed can be openly hostile to attempts by minorities to become like or mesh with the majority. It is a two way process with efforts from every side that is needed.

[Beet]

I think the real long-term answer is to dissolve the whole idea of minority status, at least for people who are currently viewed that way.

Every group who comes to this country starts out as a 'minority.'  And every group save one has eventually joined the majority, or is in the process of doing so.

We need to get rid of the idea that there are any permanent minorities in this country.  Everybody should have at least the potential or promise to become part of the majority, and not be viewed any differently than anybody else.

I realize this is a lot easier said than done.  But I often think that when you compare many of our current policies on race with the ones we had in the segregation era, they're really just the flip sides of the same coin.

We need to find a new paradigm through which to deal with this issue, since what we've been doing clearly isn't working.

Well, I really think the general point goes beyond race to include lots of other kinds of relationships between the powerful vs. weak.

I agree with you on race, although social self segregation is pretty strong. In America, all 'minority' groups should emulate Jews, pretty much.

But Affirmative action is a whole different issue (corporations and the government like it, while most idealists dislike it). I don't really support it, but I see why it continues to survive (and it's not because of liberals).

[RomneyGekko Situation Hairgel]

I think the real long-term answer is to dissolve the whole idea of minority status, at least for people who are currently viewed that way.

Every group who comes to this country starts out as a 'minority.'  And every group save one has eventually joined the majority, or is in the process of doing so.

We need to get rid of the idea that there are any permanent minorities in this country.  Everybody should have at least the potential or promise to become part of the majority, and not be viewed any differently than anybody else.

I realize this is a lot easier said than done.  But I often think that when you compare many of our current policies on race with the ones we had in the segregation era, they're really just the flip sides of the same coin.

We need to find a new paradigm through which to deal with this issue, since what we've been doing clearly isn't working.

Well, I really think the general point goes beyond race to include lots of other kinds of relationships between the powerful vs. weak.

I agree with you on race, although social self segregation is pretty strong. In America, all 'minority' groups should emulate Jews, pretty much.

But Affirmative action is a whole different issue (corporations and the government like it, while most idealists dislike it). I don't really support it, but I see why it continues to survive (and it's not because of liberals).

Our Democratic party always gets perceived as the party that favors AA, yet I talk to so many Dems who oppose it even some Ward leaders and Committeepeople (both Philly terms).  Funny I even talk to some blacks who don't like it because it basically tells them they're inferior.  You can take Coretta Scott King's words regarding blacks who want segregation and AA could very well be interpreted as such. 

     

[CARLHAYDEN]

An interesting aside.

I was on an interservice committee a long time ago, and after the work day was over, one of the members, an Army Captain suggested we go to a cantonese restaurant to eat and know back a fews beers.

I personally prefer Thai, but we went to the restaurant, and the waiter, unaware that the Captain was fluent in Cantonese, made a remark about how it was "time to feed the barbarians" in Cantonese.

The idea that whites are the only ones who make racists remarks is absurd.

[Governor PiT]

there is definalty a double standard at least in this country. if you are of European decent in America you are taught to feel ashame from an early age. if you are non-white you are taught to be praud of your heritage.