Which is more patriotic?

[© tweed]

.

[bullmoose88]

Answer C: Creating Push Polls

[John Dibble]

Answer D: Reciting the pledge while pissing on an American flag you're burning to celebrate how great our country is while simultaneously writing about how you hate flag-burners while also putting a bunch of stickers on your car about how you support the troops and how you hate Bush but love the Republican Party but also hate it.

[Nym90]

Thinking for yourself and using your own judgement is certainly a far better expression of patriotic American ideals than doing what you are told.

[Dr. Cynic]

Option Q

Never doing what you're told because it's "patriotic", but doing it because you want to.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Option 2 is such a lame stand.

Given all the problems in the world what is the big deal with the words "under god", you think we would have discovered world peace by now.

[© tweed]

Given all the problems in the world what is the big deal with the words "under god"

Because it is a forced fallacy.

If somebody asked you to recite "2+2=5", would you?

[The Duke]

If you want to recite the pledge, recite it.

If you don't want ot recite the pledge, don't recite it.

Neither is more patriotic than the other.

Both are more patriotic than just doing what you're told without question.

[DownWithTheLeft]

Option Q

Never doing what you're told because it's "patriotic", but doing it because you want to.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[jokerman]

The former, definitely.

[Gabu]

The former, definitely.

How is it patriotic to mindlessly do something because you're instructed to?

[jokerman]

The former, definitely.

How is it patriotic to mindlessly do something because you're instructed to?

No one is actually forcing you to do it, and I find "expressing" your rights via insulting the very institutions that gaurentee those rights very foolish.

[jerusalemcar5]

Option 2, but mostly because I find the pledge creepy, not religiously offensive (though I do think it is).  It reminds me of some fascist nation trying to quell dissent through forced recitations of allegiance.

[nclib]

Assuming you've thought about it, Option 2.

[Dr. Cynic]

Well, being Patriotic is a matter of interpretation. If you feel yourself patriotic and want to run up and down the street reciting the Pledge over and over and over, then it's your right...

If you don't want to recite the pledge because you don't believe in it, that's your right as well.

This country should not force someone into either option. It's a personal choice.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

option 1.  Amer. was founded on God--if you disagree, get over it.  Bring it up w/ George Washington.

[Gabu]

option 1.  Amer. was founded on God--if you disagree, get over it.  Bring it up w/ George Washington.

"The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"
- Treaty of Tripoli, approved of by President John Adams and ratified by the Senate

"All treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land"
- The US Constitution, Article VI

It is thus the supreme law of the land that the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.

I suggest you bring it up with John Adams instead.

[Colin]

option 1.  Amer. was founded on God--if you disagree, get over it.  Bring it up w/ George Washington.

Yes bring it up with George Washington, a man who never used the word God in any of his speeches, refused to take communion for most of his adult life and was a practicing freemason who said he only believed in the, deistic, Grand Architect of the Universe.

Or maybe our second president, Adams whose personal writings were so vehemently anti-clerical and against the teachings of the church he was born into, the Church of Christ (Congregationalist), that he almost seems like a broken record. He later became a Unitarian along with Washington and Jefferson. Also a strong proponent of latitudinarianism, which is the belief that if there is a God he will reward people based on the good works that they do rather than on the beliefs they have.

I believe our third president goes without saying that he was not Christian by any means and, in his spare time, actually created a bible with all the miracles, mentions of God, and other unreasonable, to him, passages taken out, along with the entire old testament. Plus the huge evidence that we have of his views on religion, which wavered between atheism, agnosticism, and deism.

Alexander Hamilton was completely non-religious and is reported to actually never had attended Church after coming to America at age 18. He seems to have nothing to say on religion and his beliefs were probably along the lines of Secular Humanism.

Benjamin Franklin was a Presbyterian who became a Unitarian. While he believed in God he did not believe in the devinity of Jesus and, like Adams and Jefferson, believed that organized religions had corrupted the morals and teachings of Jesus into the Christian religion. He also believed in latitudinarianism, which was very popular among Enlightenment thinkers.

These are just a few examples. The US Constitution, as well, never once states the words God, Providence, Creator or anything of the such while many other major documents of the era, as well as most state constitutions, do. This was not just a minor absence but a major statement that the rule of law was based off of secular principals. The United States is a country with a population that is majority Christian but its not a Christian nation.

[Dr. Cynic]

option 1.  Amer. was founded on God--if you disagree, get over it.  Bring it up w/ George Washington.

I take issue with that, much like Gabu and Colin... The Pledge was written long after Washington, and most of the enlightened American thinkers like Adams, Hamilton and Franklin were in their graves.

It should also be noted, that America was not founded on god... It was founded on the idea of Representative Government.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

option 1.  Amer. was founded on God--if you disagree, get over it.  Bring it up w/ George Washington.

Yes bring it up with George Washington, a man who never used the word God in any of his speeches, refused to take communion for most of his adult life and was a practicing freemason who said he only believed in the, deistic, Grand Architect of the Universe.

Or maybe our second president, Adams whose personal writings were so vehemently anti-clerical and against the teachings of the church he was born into, the Church of Christ (Congregationalist), that he almost seems like a broken record. He later became a Unitarian along with Washington and Jefferson. Also a strong proponent of latitudinarianism, which is the belief that if there is a God he will reward people based on the good works that they do rather than on the beliefs they have.

I believe our third president goes without saying that he was not Christian by any means and, in his spare time, actually created a bible with all the miracles, mentions of God, and other unreasonable, to him, passages taken out, along with the entire old testament. Plus the huge evidence that we have of his views on religion, which wavered between atheism, agnosticism, and deism.

Alexander Hamilton was completely non-religious and is reported to actually never had attended Church after coming to America at age 18. He seems to have nothing to say on religion and his beliefs were probably along the lines of Secular Humanism.

Benjamin Franklin was a Presbyterian who became a Unitarian. While he believed in God he did not believe in the devinity of Jesus and, like Adams and Jefferson, believed that organized religions had corrupted the morals and teachings of Jesus into the Christian religion. He also believed in latitudinarianism, which was very popular among Enlightenment thinkers.

These are just a few examples. The US Constitution, as well, never once states the words God, Providence, Creator or anything of the such while many other major documents of the era, as well as most state constitutions, do. This was not just a minor absence but a major statement that the rule of law was based off of secular principals. The United States is a country with a population that is majority Christian but its not a Christian nation.

It was meant as the Founding Fathers in general--not specifically necessarily Wash'ton, but Jefferson said that the Bible should be used as a text book (while president and superintendent of D.C. schools)

[Akno21]

option 1.  Amer. was founded on God--if you disagree, get over it.  Bring it up w/ George Washington.

Yes bring it up with George Washington, a man who never used the word God in any of his speeches, refused to take communion for most of his adult life and was a practicing freemason who said he only believed in the, deistic, Grand Architect of the Universe.

Or maybe our second president, Adams whose personal writings were so vehemently anti-clerical and against the teachings of the church he was born into, the Church of Christ (Congregationalist), that he almost seems like a broken record. He later became a Unitarian along with Washington and Jefferson. Also a strong proponent of latitudinarianism, which is the belief that if there is a God he will reward people based on the good works that they do rather than on the beliefs they have.

I believe our third president goes without saying that he was not Christian by any means and, in his spare time, actually created a bible with all the miracles, mentions of God, and other unreasonable, to him, passages taken out, along with the entire old testament. Plus the huge evidence that we have of his views on religion, which wavered between atheism, agnosticism, and deism.

Alexander Hamilton was completely non-religious and is reported to actually never had attended Church after coming to America at age 18. He seems to have nothing to say on religion and his beliefs were probably along the lines of Secular Humanism.

Benjamin Franklin was a Presbyterian who became a Unitarian. While he believed in God he did not believe in the devinity of Jesus and, like Adams and Jefferson, believed that organized religions had corrupted the morals and teachings of Jesus into the Christian religion. He also believed in latitudinarianism, which was very popular among Enlightenment thinkers.

These are just a few examples. The US Constitution, as well, never once states the words God, Providence, Creator or anything of the such while many other major documents of the era, as well as most state constitutions, do. This was not just a minor absence but a major statement that the rule of law was based off of secular principals. The United States is a country with a population that is majority Christian but its not a Christian nation.

It was meant as the Founding Fathers in general--not specifically necessarily Wash'ton, but Jefferson said that the Bible should be used as a text book (while president and superintendent of D.C. schools)

I think the fact that Jefferson supported the "building a wall of separation between church and State," is a bit more relevent then whatever he thought about what books should be used in schools. Keep in mind the time period.

[Colin]

It was meant as the Founding Fathers in general--not specifically necessarily Wash'ton, but Jefferson said that the Bible should be used as a text book (while president and superintendent of D.C. schools)

Jefferson also said this when he was discussing the departments that should be available at UVA, the school he founded and built. "A professorship of theology should have no place in this institution."

I believe that Jefferson was probably stating that the bible should be read as English literature since it is an integral part of much of modern literature. That doesn't mean he supported its message or believed in it.

I am currently reading the Aeneid in Latin. One of the most widely known stories of the Classical Age. In it it often includes figures such as Neptune, Jupiter, Venus, Juno and Vulcan, all deities and figures in religion. However in reading this text I of course do not really take from it a belief in Roman polytheism. I believe the same is true of what Jefferson is trying to say when he believes that the bible should be taught. Although it is a religious text it is also a basis for a good amount of English literature, just as Classical Age epics like the Aeneid are, however you do not need to believe nor force belief in something onto a person in order for them to appreciate it.

Don't try to debate that Jefferson is a bible-thumping Christian because its a fool's errand.

[Dr. Cynic]

To interject my opinions on Jefferson... I believe Colin has it mostly right, but also remember, the bible was one of the few pieces of literature that average American families owned... Clearly... It was more about literacy than religion.

[Colin]

To interject my opinions on Jefferson... I believe Colin has it mostly right, but also remember, the bible was one of the few pieces of literature that average American families owned... Clearly... It was more about literacy than religion.

Very true and an excellent point. You could safely say that in 1800 the only piece of fine English literature that the average American family had was the King James Version of the Holy Bible, if it was not the only book that the family had.